tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post1241883534414821513..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: March '17 Open ThreadAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-14850391007342066442017-04-03T17:14:16.447-07:002017-04-03T17:14:16.447-07:00Suggestion to the Seattle Times:
How about doing...Suggestion to the Seattle Times: <br /><br />How about doing a story sometime on academically highly gifted students and the struggles they face in trying to get an appropriate education? <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-74755637363686734262017-04-03T17:09:44.775-07:002017-04-03T17:09:44.775-07:00A little more...
“It’s ugly. I see kids who’ve cl...A little more...<br /><br /><i>“It’s ugly. I see kids who’ve clearly been coached, and I hear all the time from parents who want to get their kids into gifted programs — not necessarily the program that’s best for their kids. It’s a problem...”</i><br />Ok, so there's demand for gifted services. Who cares? If it's so obvious to psychs that kids have been coached, then those kids can't cheat their way into gifted programs. Any psych worth their credential should be able to figure out who is really qualified. We're talking about kids at the 98th+ percentile. They stand out.<br /><br /><i>“There are very, very few kids who are truly at the advanced-learning-genius kind of level,” said Wilson Chin, a cellular biologist who left the lab to teach sixth-graders at TAF...</i><br />He thinks "advanced learning" and ""genius" level are, or should be, the same thing? That's crazy. He's right that very, very few "genius" level kids are in advanced learning programs--why would they be, since the programs aren't designed for them and wouldn't serve them well? These programs are designed for students who are highly gifted, not genius level. Big difference.<br /><br /><i>“For most students, the idea that ‘my child is brilliant and can only be challenged by other so-called brilliant kids’ is absurd. If kids have the right teaching, any of them can be in a so-called ‘advanced’ program.”</i><br />Ah, so they only need "so-called" advanced programs. Got it. I guess that's like Federal Way's so-called AP classes? <br /><br /><i>Angela Griffin was there, shaking her head at gifted-student Power Points that showed the same racial patterns she encountered a decade ago, driven by the same old tests. Her daughter Nila, meanwhile, was 25 miles away. She’d been part of the first graduating class at TAF, attended college early and was back to tutor students in math before continuing her pursuit of a career in medicine.</i><br />Wow, nice closing. I guess that "proves" the point that it's all racism? I mean, nobody who isn't "gifted" could ever graduate from high school and go to college, right?<br /><br />Still riled up. But trying to calm down. I just feel so bad for my academically gifted but also very sensitive student, who has come to hate feeling so different, so attacked by the system for being smart, made to feel guilty, etc. I just want to scream sometimes!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-69784331428993068212017-04-03T17:07:18.144-07:002017-04-03T17:07:18.144-07:00Overall, however, Washington tolerates a persisten...<i>Overall, however, Washington tolerates a persistent caste system in its schools, with an upper strata [sic] characterized by creativity and exploration, and a general-education track emphasizing little of that.</i><br />A caste system, really? And where can I get some of this "creativity and exploration" in education in my child's public school advanced learning experience. I'm not seeing it. <br /><br /><i>The label “gifted” is a loaded one. No proven marker of future brilliance, it is defined differently in different places...</i> <br />Who the F expects it to be a marker of future brilliance, or even wants it to be? The point is for it to denote a different level of current ability/achievement, a different learning style--in other words, different needs in the present. It's about providing an educational experience that is....educational. <br /><br /><i>Just because you’re an early reader does not mean you’re going to be a brilliant scholar.</i><br />Duh. But the implication is that if you're not going to end up a brilliant scholar, you don't deserve an appropriate education now?<br /><br /><i>Whites occupy 66 percent of the seats in Washington’s accelerated classrooms, and Asians much of the remainder. The big-picture ramifications — from future employment prospects to income inequality — keep education researchers awake at night.</i><br />What, so if you're not in gifted ed your job prospects are doomed? Only the top small percentage of students are bound to succeed in life? Even though being "deemed" "gifted" is not a marker of future brilliance?<br /><br /><i>The question is one of definitions, and at the Robinson Center for Young Scholars at UW director Nancy Hertzog agrees that high I.Q. scores alone do not always correlate with giftedness — though that is a measure often used by schools. Hertzog sees these students as kids who need services akin to Special Education, rather than stars granted special status.</i><br />Uhh, aren't the gifted services supposed to be the "special ed" type services? And in what district are gifted students seen as "stars granted special status"???<br /><br /><i>“When students are privately tested, they’re getting a completely different experience from the usual Saturday morning cattle call.” </i><br />That's probably true. But here's a question: Is that testing experience any less reliable? Are the results perhaps even MORE accurate than the "cattle call"? To suggest "we only test kids in chaotic group situations, and if they aren't gifted enough to overcome their anxiety or ADHD or whatnot, then they aren't gifted enough to need services" is complete BS.<br /><br /><br />Riled upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-76609822663025515572017-04-03T16:11:22.191-07:002017-04-03T16:11:22.191-07:00Right. And the article even mentions there had bee...Right. And the article even mentions there had been concerns about the potential downward impact on rigor, while suggesting that fear didn't pan out because students were passing the courses at high rates. News flash--lots of students passing the class but not passing the associated exam is exactly what you would expect if a corse was watered down!<br /><br />Seriously, Seattle Times, how about a litte critical thinking here? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-21072691798757915482017-04-03T14:47:47.463-07:002017-04-03T14:47:47.463-07:00The front page of the Seattle Times article has a ...The front page of the Seattle Times article has a graph of Federal Way AP and IB courses, showing that 89% of black students pass their courses, along with high scores for other groups. That's incredibly misleading, because buried deep in the article's 2nd page, it admits that 2/3 of the Federal Way students FAIL their AP and IB tests. 66% failure rate! It doesn't break that percentage down by ethnicity. <br /><br />Isn't the point of AP and IB classes to get students to do college-level work? Aren't most students expected to pass the tests if they complete the year? What kind of classes are Federal Way students getting if 66% fail the exams? What does that do to kids' self-esteem to be set up for failure?<br /><br />Momof2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-35917391715736699242017-04-03T14:31:51.399-07:002017-04-03T14:31:51.399-07:00I, too, noticed that comments were turned off for ...I, too, noticed that comments were turned off for that article.<br /><br /><i>“The kids we call ‘gifted,’ for many their only gift is their parents, who’ve had the time and money to invest in them,” he said. “We’ve confused being privileged with being gifted."</i><br /><br />Hard to know where to start.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-2808209665267903092017-04-03T14:04:46.230-07:002017-04-03T14:04:46.230-07:00Thank you for posting this article. It highlights ...Thank you for posting this article. It highlights exactly the sentiment that I was attempting to express. <br /><br />This sentence in particular is worth noting: "Rainier Scholars, for instance, handpicks promising minority students in the sixth grade, none of whom have tested into gifted programs. After 14 months of high-powered academic counseling, 95 percent find their way to advanced learning."<br /><br />-SleeplessInSeattleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-51566956068702712712017-04-03T13:51:42.169-07:002017-04-03T13:51:42.169-07:00Here is the story link
http://www.seattletimes.co...Here is the story link<br /><br /><a href="http://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/gifted-programs-across-washington-leave-out-black-and-latino-students-except-in-federal-way/" rel="nofollow">http://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/gifted-programs-across-washington-leave-out-black-and-latino-students-except-in-federal-way/</a><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-72285568118980921462017-04-03T13:47:48.926-07:002017-04-03T13:47:48.926-07:00Seattle Times has a front page story aimed squarel...Seattle Times has a front page story aimed squarely at the SPS program. A lot of criticism without calling it out by name, but the intent is obvious. It quotes one of the psychs that many families use to test into AL. Psych says the process is bogus. Doesn't seem the best move for his practice! I note it turned off reader comments on the story, which it almost never does. I knew HCC was unpopular with the political types but wow. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-53711691523523236562017-04-03T00:41:44.180-07:002017-04-03T00:41:44.180-07:00I agree we should bring back Spectrum! I have one...I agree we should bring back Spectrum! I have one HCC kid and I wonder if my younger will "test in" or not. I have a feeling she is in the Spectrum range but not HCC, but it's hard to know. I think there needs to be more rigor in general ed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-64228193772750776772017-04-02T20:14:41.301-07:002017-04-02T20:14:41.301-07:00How do people feel about Seattle opening a "l...How do people feel about Seattle opening a "low barrier shelter" a 5 minutes walk from the Wilson Pacific site? "Low barrier" appears to mean, in this context, no restrictions on substance (alcohol or otherwise) abuse while on site.<br /><br />https://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2017/3/31/seattle-s-first-low-barrier-shelter-opens-in-lichton-springs-wednesday<br /><br />This in an area that has been having a long standing crime problem, including the occasional shooting, including one happening last night.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-42322321855621366142017-03-31T12:31:46.130-07:002017-03-31T12:31:46.130-07:00This article highlights some of my concerns with t...This article highlights some of my concerns with the current system: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/upshot/why-talented-black-and-hispanic-students-can-go-undiscovered.html <br /><br />From this example, high-achieving students who didn't necessarily make the "gifted" cutoff saw large gains by being an an enhanced, accelerated classroom. Kids who are in the top 10-20% of the classroom are losing out on their potential academic gains by the "one size fits all" approach in general education. We really should bring back Spectrum classrooms for those that don't quite meet HCC. I would guess that after a year or two in a Spectrum classroom, many of those students would end up having achievement scores worthy of HCC.<br /><br />Some of the same effects could probably be attained by after-school tutoring, intensive parental support, and Kumon. But many parents (myself included) lack the time and money for these options, and this approach dramatically decreases equitable access to high-quality education. That's what is really at stake here.<br /><br />Some other countries provide educational environments a year or two more advanced than American schools, and they provide this to all children, not only a select few. Why can't we do this in Seattle, and then provide extra support for the few children that are behind?<br /><br />-SleeplessInSeattleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-90445441215069981532017-03-31T05:17:22.084-07:002017-03-31T05:17:22.084-07:00The bills are related to college credit for AP exa...The bills are related to college credit for AP exams (only for institutions within WA state). Colleges and universities have different policies regarding credit and placement based on AP/IB exam scores. Some colleges grant college credit for specified scores, some just grant placement into higher level courses, and some do neither. Policies vary for AP and IB as well, with AP generally being more recognized than IB. For AP, a student doesn't even need to take the AP course - any student can take an AP exam and if they get a high enough score they may get college credit, depending on the policy of the institution. <br /><br />Running Start (NOT the same as IB/IBX) grants dual credit - both college credit and high school credit. Students take classes at their area community college and earn college credit at the same time they are earning their high school diploma. They can potentially earn an associate degree after two years of Running Start. Students are not eligible for Running Start until they are juniors. Running Start becomes a part of a student's college record.<br /><br />With IBX, if students meet all the school requirements for the IB diploma, and pass all classes, they get a waiver of state graduation requirements and can graduate at the end of junior year if they wish. They can also take Running Start classes their senior year.<br /><br />SB 5234 - 2017-18 <br /><br /><i>Requires institutions of higher education to establish a coordinated, evidence-based policy for granting as many undergraduate college credits to students who have earned minimum scores of three on AP exams as possible and appropriate.<br /><br />HB 1333 - 2017-18 </i><br /><br /><i>Requires institutions of higher education to establish a coordinated, evidence-based policy for granting as many undergraduate college credits, as possible and appropriate, to students who have earned minimum scores of three on AP exams.</i><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-18672676809090913542017-03-30T20:40:25.018-07:002017-03-30T20:40:25.018-07:00RE:
SB 5234 and HB1333
I'm confused about thi...RE: <br />SB 5234 and HB1333<br />I'm confused about this. I'm a middle school HCC parent. I always assumed that if my kid went to high school and did Running Start (is that the same as IB or IBX?) that she would get college credit and essentially have a community college degree by the time she finished high school. Is that not true? Or am I mixing things up?<br /><br />-AAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-3265375521548261532017-03-30T15:16:40.059-07:002017-03-30T15:16:40.059-07:00A poster above noted a reading score of the 80th p...A poster above noted a reading score of the 80th percentile and qualifying CogAT scores. <br /><br />A kindergarten student scoring in the 80th percentile on the winter reading test would have a MAP RIT score of 162. A kindergarten student scoring in the 95th percentile on the winter MAP would have a RIT score of 172. That’s only a 10 RIT difference. The mean annual RIT growth from winter K to winter first grade is 19.71. So the difference between an 80th percentile score and a 95th percentile score is only about half a year. <br /><br />Since the MAP test is grade normed, a child with a summer birthday that is 11 months younger than another child in the same class is at a measureable disadvantage for qualifying for HCC. That can be very frustrating for a parent that has a child with qualifying CogAT scores but non-qualifying reading or math scores.<br /><br />But, it also means that if a younger child has qualifying CogAT scores in K but non-qualifying reading or math achievement scores, if the parent actively works with them for nine months including over the summer, they have a real chance of making up the difference and then appealing with a private achievement test in first grade. Because the system discriminates against younger kids, I believe this is a perfectly ethical use of the appeals process and private testing.<br /><br />Redshirting is a different approach, but because it’s age-normed holding a child back could impact their CogAT scores. But there are many reasons to consider redshirting a summer birthday.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-53541813679533383702017-03-30T13:13:24.741-07:002017-03-30T13:13:24.741-07:00Every child is different. In our case our son is a...Every child is different. In our case our son is also on the ADD spectrum, so while he is ready to handle academic acceleration his focus skills aren't as good as they could be and I think he would have benefited from another year of maturation. <br />Interestingly, he shows much more focus when working on things that are more challenging.<br /><br />Our daughter appears to be the opposite--working on multiplication/division at three with tremendous focus. She is also benefiting from a much more enriching preschool environment than our son got. And yet, IQ testing shows them at about the same percentiles.<br /><br />I think the problem with the way things are set up is that in most cases it is HCC or no academic acceleration/enrichment at all, except what one can provide outside the home.<br /><br />-Wishing we'd red-shirted<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-26210300732870235102017-03-30T12:49:47.007-07:002017-03-30T12:49:47.007-07:00Anecdotally, there are also summer B-day HCC stude...Anecdotally, there are also summer B-day HCC students who didn't redshirt, but would benefit from more advancement than is offered in HCC. It's not about racing ahead, but wanting to go the speed your car is equipped to handle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-3463333408348295372017-03-30T12:48:10.657-07:002017-03-30T12:48:10.657-07:00Interesting that many want to redshirt in order to...Interesting that many want to redshirt in order to more easily qualify for HCC. We had wanted to start early instead, since child was so far ahead and so much more mature than age-mates. I always kind of assumed that other highly gifted kids would be in the same boat--ready for more sooner, not needing to sit out a year to get an added advantage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-27557923317974857392017-03-30T12:38:35.453-07:002017-03-30T12:38:35.453-07:00The HCC testing screens for students who are alrea...The HCC testing screens for students who are already achieving above grade level, not just those who have the potential to work above grade level. The services are mostly acceleration of content, so students should be working ahead of grade level for best placement. Aren't CogAT scores age normed, so an old for K student may get a lower SAS score than a young for K student, even if they have the same raw score? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-22135940610670935592017-03-30T12:31:28.554-07:002017-03-30T12:31:28.554-07:00Regarding red-shirting, we have two kids in HCC. T...Regarding red-shirting, we have two kids in HCC. The one with a summer birthday, we red-shirted and sent to pre-k and started K at age 6. The one with a spring birthday started K at age 5. Both kids are doing fine in HCC.<br /><br />Because the CogAT is age-normed and tests learned reasoning, I believe red-shirting could hurt these scores. Because the achievement test is grade-normed, I believe red-shirting could help these scores. In general, those kids born in September have an 11 month achievement test advantage compared to those born in August for HCC qualification, which matters most in the early grades.<br /><br />I was red-shirted as child but not because of HCC. I don't regret it. I always tell our red-shirted child that life is not a race.<br /><br />The biggest issue we had with red-shirting is that our child was always on a soccer team with kids a grade up. But soccer recently changed to assignment by calendar birth year so the soccer team now has lots of kids from both grades.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-35744282300391084092017-03-30T11:38:59.775-07:002017-03-30T11:38:59.775-07:00Also, to be honest, if going through the process a...Also, to be honest, if going through the process again I would have had our summer birthday kid start kindergarten at 6, not 5. He has always had qualifying CogAT/IQ scores but misses the math/reading cutoff. I believe that if he were in first grade now instead of second he would easily attain the achievement test cutoff--he's doing third grade math and reading at a level P in a private school, where the learning groups are flexible and dynamic and not set in stone at the beginning of the year. <br /><br />Just something to think about if you are on the fence. I was very against red-shirting but in retrospect it may have been the best thing to do for my child, for this fact and the fact that focus seems better in kids who start later. It's frustrating to be bright but compared to kids a year older than you, when a year constitutes 20% of your years of life lived to date.<br /><br />-Wishing we'd redshirtedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-22222072522652280422017-03-30T11:06:04.931-07:002017-03-30T11:06:04.931-07:00Spring achievement testing (previous school year) ...Spring achievement testing (previous school year) is typically what's used for AL qualification. Before MAP, K-2 students were evaluated at their school in small groups. <br /><br />What you call "tutoring" some would just consider good parenting - reading to children from a young age, taking them to the library, etc. Remember the days when you could check out 50 books from the library instead if 25? We took full advantage of it when our children were young. BOB books were a favorite.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-14371910571817843962017-03-30T10:31:13.343-07:002017-03-30T10:31:13.343-07:00Regarding reading scores and HCC qualification, he...Regarding reading scores and HCC qualification, here’s another experience. <br /><br />We had a child tested in K that qualified for HCC on everything but the reading. We paid for a private reading test that returned similar scores to the MAP, so didn’t appeal.<br /> <br />For the next year, we tutored our child in reading. This meant starting the Magic Treehouse books towards the end of K and our child reading the entire series (multiple times) in first. We read them together and our child also eventually read them alone. Note, those books get much harder and longer as you progress through the series and were enjoyed by both our son and daughter. Plus we practiced with some of the reading comprehension workbooks.<br /><br />How did our child do in first on the reading? At our school, the MAP was only given in the spring for first grade, so Advanced Learning used the kindergarten reading score and again disqualified our child. We again paid for private reading testing, and this time our child pasted the reading test. Our child had also again passed the CogAT and the MAP math test.<br /><br />I believe reading is one area where private testing and SPS testing may vary leading to different results. I believe the MAP test is more of an ELA where some private tests are more focused on just reading.<br /><br />Did we consciously prep our child in reading? Absolutely; but the only way for a child to get advanced math instruction in SPS is to pass the reading test to get into HCC. And in a year our child became a voracious reader who now frequently reads 500+ pages a week of text 4 of 5 grades up.<br /><br />Is it fair and equitable that we help our kids? Absolutely not, as I’m sure there is another child out there that will never qualify for HCC because they didn’t have someone at home to support them. But if someone wants to bash us for teaching our child to read, go right ahead, I make no apologies.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-15488096868045069842017-03-29T15:14:13.559-07:002017-03-29T15:14:13.559-07:00See page 36 of SPS Counseling Manual:
http://www....See page 36 of SPS Counseling Manual:<br /><br />http://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/College%20and%20Career%20Readiness/CounselingManual.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-45174366983712119102017-03-29T14:42:20.277-07:002017-03-29T14:42:20.277-07:00Yes, someone (another parent) FINALLY explained th...Yes, someone (another parent) FINALLY explained that to me. It's actually pretty simple: honors classes count more than regular classes when figuring out class rank (although not for your GPA). I think an A in a standard class gives you 4.0 points, while an A in a honors classes gives you 4.5. So, since generally the HCC kids opt for honors and AP classes, those will let them end up higher in the class ranking. Apparently this is why no one opts to put Algebra 1, Geometry, Physical Science or Biology on their high school transcripts. They just use their actual high school classes instead. <br /><br />I believe that's how it works. <br />SusanHnoreply@blogger.com