tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post3644424056594369657..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: Open threadAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-66721598986573028602013-02-19T16:43:03.999-08:002013-02-19T16:43:03.999-08:00After. Enroll as if your appeal was successful.After. Enroll as if your appeal was successful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-90151578562472985132013-02-18T15:10:19.397-08:002013-02-18T15:10:19.397-08:00Does anyone know when parents typically receive no...Does anyone know when parents typically receive notification of the results of an appeal? Is it typically before open enrollment ends?<br /><br />Also is it advisable to make sure the AL office received one's appeal?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-5337559760456448992013-02-18T15:00:50.869-08:002013-02-18T15:00:50.869-08:00On the fence - may I ask which neighborhood school...On the fence - may I ask which neighborhood school you'd be returning to? <br />just curiousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-29314048879971259752013-02-18T10:02:52.171-08:002013-02-18T10:02:52.171-08:00We have a child who started in APP this year at Li...We have a child who started in APP this year at Lincoln. We are debating whether this was a good choice and if APP @ Lincoln is an appropriate fit. Our neighborhood school does a great job accommodating advanced learners -- we moved largely for the cohort. Do we have to make a final decision re: returning to Lincoln vs. returning to our neighborhood school in the fall by March 8th or can we complete the school year and then decide? I’m concerned if we make a decision now, it may not be the correct decision. Thanks for any insight.On the fence for next yearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-6489550401741684892013-02-18T09:46:31.543-08:002013-02-18T09:46:31.543-08:00I got the impresson that JAK8 students walked to H...I got the impresson that JAK8 students walked to Hale if they needed math placement higher than 8th grade. There is currently a cohort of 7th graders taking 8th grade (Spectrum level) math, so hopefully they would have an Algebra 1 class in place for next year. That would mean qualified 6th graders would be in class primarily with 8th graders, then walk to Hale for 7th and 8th grade. That only works while JAK8 is situated across from Hale.<br /><br />If your child is working beyond Spectrum level, you should clarify with the principal that 3 years of math will be available at whatever school you choose. You could get into the situation where an online or offsite class is needed since nothing is offered at your chosen school. <br /><br />There still is not an Algebra II class at HIMS, home of APP. Supposedly there will be once this year's 6th grade cohort gets to 8th grade.fludnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-88319634663035374062013-02-17T22:34:26.885-08:002013-02-17T22:34:26.885-08:00Does anyone know if 5th graders exceeding 250 on t...Does anyone know if 5th graders exceeding 250 on the MAP were allowed into Algebra at either Eckstein or Jane Addams this year? If so, did many families take advantage of this opportunity?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />APP in ALOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-52752241504817504312013-02-17T10:17:01.503-08:002013-02-17T10:17:01.503-08:00Helen, I'm not sure how many Alg2 questions th...Helen, I'm not sure how many Alg2 questions there are, but at least when my kid was taking it, there was essentially nothing above Alg2. There were only a couple log problems, and nothing above that. For <i>most</i> kids around the city, that's not a issue in middle school, but in APP we should expect to have a handful each year.<br /><br />Remember though, they add and remove questions all the time, so for all we know they could have added 1,000 trig or pre-calc questions last week and we wouldn't have any way to know.<br /><br />@anon at 3:26 PM<br /><br />"Ceiling" implies a hard limit, and no, 245 is not a hard limit, there's nothing magic about that number. The tests are simply less reliable as scores get farther away from the norms. I've seen strand numbers on the reading test reach up into the 280s, but the error bands can be 25-30 points. It's a matter of interpretation as to what that means. Frankly, I think kids are probably topping out the reading section as well, but because of the nature of the questions it would be very difficult to know with certainty.<br /><br />Also, as Helen said, be careful that you're comparing scores from the same tests, as there are different versions.dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-13912146553389568272013-02-16T21:39:27.892-08:002013-02-16T21:39:27.892-08:00Previous discussion of maximum RIT score on MAP wa...Previous discussion of maximum RIT score on MAP was here: http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2010/10/map-is-definitely-being-used-as-barrier.html<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-76391101247279162422013-02-16T18:41:46.633-08:002013-02-16T18:41:46.633-08:00Elementary students take a different test, so a 24...Elementary students take a different test, so a 245 on that does NOT necessarily mean the same thing as one on the test for 6+. (Ideally APP students would be taking the 6+ test earlier than sixth grade, but I haven't heard whether that's happening.)<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-16617332738891108212013-02-16T18:14:24.014-08:002013-02-16T18:14:24.014-08:00I think Lori is correct. You are guaranteed your &...I think Lori is correct. You are guaranteed your "attendance" area school, not a program assignment. <br />kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-78194524329623092702013-02-16T16:16:06.067-08:002013-02-16T16:16:06.067-08:00enrollment watcher, I know a family who applied fo...enrollment watcher, I know a family who applied for APP at Lincoln (which would be their assigned school based on address) AFTER open enrollment last year, and they were wait-listed. They eventually got in, but only as space allowed. <br /><br />I don't mean to be debating this point back and forth with you, but I think it's important for anyone out there who's deciding right now to seek clarification on their own.<br /><br />Maybe TM has more space so it's less of an issue? But I don't think anyone who misses open enrollment should assume they'll get into Lincoln if they later change their mind. Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-78243602739580768912013-02-16T15:26:43.928-08:002013-02-16T15:26:43.928-08:00The reading MAP does have a stated ceiling - a RIT...The reading MAP does have a stated ceiling - a RIT of 245. A student can score higher than this, but it does not mean anything more than a score of 245. You can report that a student scored high, but not that moving from 245 to 250 is meaningful growth. Some elementary students are hitting this ceiling. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-70027830971501284642013-02-16T14:58:24.283-08:002013-02-16T14:58:24.283-08:00Lori - this year enrollment asked people to enroll...Lori - this year enrollment asked people to enroll on time, but people who enrolled in APP late were allowed in to the program per district policy. If your APP assignment school is thurgood, you are guaranteed an in at that school even if classes get over-filled and you sign up late. There is no space limitation if it is your assignment school. If you are looking to go outside of your assignment school, they may exclude you based on space. they are no longer excluding you from the program altogether if you miss the deadline. The same is true for late enrollment to your neighborhood school. That is how they interpreted that written policy this year.<br />-enrollment watcher. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-58247859772117642712013-02-16T14:27:24.396-08:002013-02-16T14:27:24.396-08:00In saying "algebra and geometry" I was c...In saying "algebra and geometry" I was counting algebra 2 as well -- are you saying there aren't even that many questions from algebra 2?<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-3658528203223133642013-02-16T14:22:13.206-08:002013-02-16T14:22:13.206-08:00I don't see that enrollment change on the web ...I don't see that enrollment change on the web site, although that doesn't mean it's not true! Any idea where we can confirm enrollment watcher's statement? Or maybe you can enroll any time, but placement is only guaranteed during open enrollment.<br /><br />Here's what it still says on the district web site: <i>Newly-eligible APP students who <b>enroll on-time (during Open Enrollment) are guaranteed an assignment.</b> Assignments for students who <b>apply after Open Enrollment are based on space availability.</b> APP students may apply for available seats at either site but preference is given to those within the region.</i>Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-77114711803064724242013-02-16T14:05:15.810-08:002013-02-16T14:05:15.810-08:00@Helen,
That's correct, there's a lot of,...@Helen,<br /><br />That's correct, there's a lot of, for lack of a better term, randomness at the very top of the MAP. Two kids could get all 52 questions correct, including all the hardest questions, and their scores would differ, depending on where exactly they started. Some time back you were suggesting that the MAP administrators should know exactly what the highest possible MAP score could be, but I think at this point you can see why that's not easy. Perhaps there is a theoretical maximum, but the sequence that a student would have to go through to get it would be akin to winning the lottery. I really doubt anyone at NWEA knows, nor should they care, given the way the test is structured. Plus, there are "experimental" questions mixed into the tests that don't count for or against the student, but are used to determine RIT scores for each question before they're actually used. Since new questions are being added and old ones are being fixed and deleted all the time, any possible maximum would change all the time as well. It's just not a number anyone should care about.<br /><br />On the math side it's relatively easy to understand how maxing out works (though it's opaque for each individual student). But with the reading section, one can imagine that even though the algorithms may be the same, the less sequential nature of the material, along with the way RIT scores are determined (empirically) makes it difficult to even comprehend what happens at the top end of that test. <br /><br />Kind of back to the above conversation with suep, any question can be assigned an empirical RIT score, regardless of the lack of any sequential knowledge required, but it doesn't mean it's meaningful. For example, I could add a question "What is Barack Obama's middle name?" to the reading test, and based on which kids got it right or wrong, and what those kids' final RIT scores were in the different sections, I could use some fancy algorithms to assign RIT #s to this question in each strand, or potentially throw it out if some error factors were too high. So we could end up assigning that question a RIT value that makes it <i>appear</i> to be in a particular sequence, but it's really not.<br /><br />As for questions beyond Algebra and Geo, yes there are questions that go into Algebra II and a bit beyond, but not many. There are, however, at least a few very interesting, challenging questions in the high banks. If your MAP administrator allows it, you should give it a try.dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-1657054383556818562013-02-16T13:17:12.142-08:002013-02-16T13:17:12.142-08:00Based on what happened this year when they tried t...<i>Based on what happened this year when they tried to pull 1.5 FTE teaching staff from Lincoln even though the school exceeded its projected enrollment,</i><br /><br />What did end up happening? I was following all of the complaints, but never really heard if the teachers were retained? I heard a rumor that SNAPP families raised enough money (how many tens of thousands? I don't know) in one month to pay for the teachers, but that seems crazy, even for uber involved APP families. (very roughly estimating, even for just 1.5 teachers, it seems like they would have had to raise something like $300 for every kid enrolled and most of those kids wouldn't be in the affected classrooms, so I don't see how that would be possible.)<br /><br />If SNAPP did pay for them, it seems like that gives SPS even more of an incentive to over estimate and threaten to reduce staff (not that I think they really have it together enough to do that.)Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-40278321610109714862013-02-16T13:17:04.089-08:002013-02-16T13:17:04.089-08:00Anonymous @ 6:59
You can find the enrollment proj...Anonymous @ 6:59<br /><br />You can find the enrollment projections by school on the district's enrollment data page.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-74968916447677757872013-02-16T13:05:45.871-08:002013-02-16T13:05:45.871-08:00Lori -- People do not have to choose APP during op...Lori -- People do not have to choose APP during open enrollment any more. The policy changed last year. You won't know numbers until school starts. Projections are just an estimate like last year.<br />-- enrollment watcherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-59737938409774823522013-02-16T12:12:53.859-08:002013-02-16T12:12:53.859-08:00Anonymous said...
The APP @ Lincoln Thursday Note ...<i>Anonymous said...<br />The APP @ Lincoln Thursday Note had a principal's update that said the school is projected to grow by one classroom next year. Considering the school added close to 100 students this year, does this indicate that there may be a cap on the number of successful appeals?</i><br /><br />No, I don't think that's what it means. I think the district has NO money whatsoever, so they are intentionally underestimating enrollment at certain schools so that those school don't go out a hire new teachers for the fall. <br /><br />Fortunately, because people have to choose APP during open enrollment, they will have a better estimate of fall numbers later this spring. Theoretically, they'll revise budgets and free up money to hire teachers before September, although in past years, sometimes the schools are only given permission to hire in August.<br /><br />Based on what happened this year when they tried to pull 1.5 FTE teaching staff from Lincoln even though the school exceeded its projected enrollment, I suspect they are being extremely conservative this year.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-21836803606191321672013-02-16T10:11:46.759-08:002013-02-16T10:11:46.759-08:00Oh, and I haven't been able to find any eviden...Oh, and I haven't been able to find any evidence that MAP math contains anything beyond algebra and geometry. That's on the higher-level test -- dunno whether the one used in elementary ever gets into algebra or not.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-22203681212504515172013-02-16T10:08:40.733-08:002013-02-16T10:08:40.733-08:00As far as I can make out, getting all the question...As far as I can make out, getting all the questions you're presented with correct could get you various RIT scores depending on what questions you're randomly presented with for the last few. If you happen to get a really hard question and get it right, you'll get a higher RIT score than someone who by chance got only moderately hard questions at the end. MAP is supposed to zero in on the level where the student is getting about half the questions right (which shows the level where you know enough to put things into context, but can benefit from much more instruction), but if you're too close to the top, of course they can't do that. <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-29302681511143220192013-02-15T22:11:51.850-08:002013-02-15T22:11:51.850-08:00@suep
Sue, you can't compare the very highly ...@suep<br /><br />Sue, you can't compare the very highly sequential nature of math with the various skills associated with reading. Of course there are some aspects of reading that are somewhat sequential, but whether a curriculum or individual teacher decides to teach the different styles/structures of poetry before or after diagramming sentences, before or after symbolism or any other broad topic is fairly arbitrary. <br /><br />The earliest stages of reading (letter recognition, phonemic awareness, decoding skills) are more naturally sequential, but the later topics are not. Math, on the other hand, is <i>mostly</i> sequential (other than a few bits, like exactly where geometry falls in), at least through Calculus. College level math becomes a bit less sequential, but we're not talking about that here.<br /><br />In general, the expected order of what is taught in math is pretty much all laid out, unlike reading. This makes an adaptive test like MAP more appropriate for math than reading if the goal is constant growth. <br /><br />To hammer this home, consider social studies, which is highly non-sequential in nature. Imagine if the MAP folks decided to make a nationally-normed test on social studies that had some kind of internal interpretation of sequence. If they expected all kids to study Egypt in 2nd grade, but your school or district didn't cover Egypt until 4th grade, your kids would be screwed on the assessment until they reached 4th grade. Of course they would (hopefully) get a much more rich and thorough understanding of Egypt's history in 4th grade simply because they are more mature and capable at that age. Many of the broad lessons that social studies is supposed to teach are much more easily understood in the context of certain societies, so the whole thing would be crazy to try to assess in a sequential way.<br /><br />Reading falls somewhere between math and social studies as far as being sequential. I think there's probably <i>some</i> meaningful data to be found with the reading portion of MAP, but far less than in the math portion.<br /><br /><i>As for kids maxing out on the MAP test, I was told by SPS test administrators that, yes, that can happen. How else do you describe it when kids consistently are in the 97-99 percentiles on MAP -- and then their teachers are told to somehow 'raise these scores,' but there's nowhere for them to go?</i><br /><br />Just because a student is in the 97-99th percentile, that doesn't mean they've maxed out the test. Remember, a 1st grader working at the 4th grade level is probably at the 99th percentile for his age group, and yet he hasn't even begun to max anything out, and has tons of room for growth. APP parents should be happy for the expectation that kids like that should still be expecting growth. In many classrooms around the district those kids are completely ignored because they are already "doing just fine".<br /><br />You just need to use RIT, not percentiles. When the district uses percentiles to grade teachers, they are not only misusing (abusing IMO) the results, but they're incorrectly interpreting them.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, none of this excuses the <i>misuse</i> of MAP results in Seattle, and the loss of several weeks of library time, etc. I've written opt-out notes for my kids. I just wish that more people understood how these tests work, and how they are and are not useful. It makes for more effective arguments.<br />dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-8392177251078709092013-02-15T22:03:17.970-08:002013-02-15T22:03:17.970-08:00@HIMmom
Not sure what you're asking to clarif...@HIMmom<br /><br />Not sure what you're asking to clarify, since your comment doesn't contradict anything I wrote, i.e. Very few kids max out (exhaust the entire bank of highest questions) on the math portion in middle school.<br /><br />But yes, many APP middle schoolers do score in the upper range of the test, where accuracy is less reliable (though I'd suggest that the math portion is reasonably accurate past 245 in math, maybe up to 260 or 270, but I'm only going from memory, not looking at JoanNE's standard error charts). There's no contradiction, as maxing out is very different from entering the less accurate range of the test.<br /><br />As for your overall assessment, I'm not sure the test is actually very helpful for many <i>APP middle school</i> students. But I do think the math portion probably does still provide somewhat helpful data throughout middle school for most kids that are not working multiple grade levels ahead. <br /><br />The reading portion is much harder to get a grasp on than math, which brings me to the next comment...<br /><br />dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-78901591524952750522013-02-15T18:59:41.891-08:002013-02-15T18:59:41.891-08:00The APP @ Lincoln Thursday Note had a principal...The APP @ Lincoln Thursday Note had a principal's update that said the school is projected to grow by one classroom next year. Considering the school added close to 100 students this year, does this indicate that there may be a cap on the number of successful appeals?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com