tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post3689007710741296814..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: Open threadAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-39972216834973816022010-03-03T15:46:07.182-08:002010-03-03T15:46:07.182-08:00Thanks Helen! I thought I had seen that posted so...Thanks Helen! I thought I had seen that posted somewhere.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-16169066174312492652010-03-03T12:10:22.475-08:002010-03-03T12:10:22.475-08:00According to http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.co...According to http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2009/10/opting-out-of-middle-school-math.html<br /><br />"WAVA uses the Dolciani series for middle school math:<br />* Pre-Algebra A (typically for WAVA’s 6th graders) uses Mathematics: Structure and Method Course 1<br />* Pre-Algebra B (typically for 7th graders) uses Mathematics: Structure and Method Course 2. As someone mentioned, this is an old book, but it is still being printed (we received a brand new copy from WAVA)<br />* Algebra (typically for 8th graders) uses Algebra: Structure and Method"<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-32638222931471668812010-03-03T11:42:34.440-08:002010-03-03T11:42:34.440-08:00Wow, my grammar was terrible in that last post. I...Wow, my grammar was terrible in that last post. I'm sorry about that. It must be time for more coffee.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-36052498348951023572010-03-03T11:07:45.291-08:002010-03-03T11:07:45.291-08:00What math curricula does WAVA use K-12 (actually I...What math curricula does WAVA use K-12 (actually I'm wondering about Middle School for my kid)? It doesn't seem easy to find out from <a href="http://www.wava.org/dg/dg_wa.html?se=Google&campaign=WA_National_SN_Job_K120928&adgroup=WA_Nat_Brand&kw=wava&gclid=CPiDwf2hnaACFRsiawodjj98SA" rel="nofollow">their website</a>--it looks like you have to register and give them your contact info.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-56137208913854566752010-03-03T10:07:26.118-08:002010-03-03T10:07:26.118-08:00Adding to the WAVA link, there were some good link...Adding to the WAVA link, there were some <a href="http://discussapp.blogspot.com/2010/01/another-open-thread.html?showComment=1263074529376#c1408416969445303646" rel="nofollow">good links to resources</a>, including WAETAG and Stanford's EPGY, in an earlier thread on supplementing APP math that might also be useful to those following this discussion.Greg Lindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09216403000599463072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-86816875963660451622010-03-03T10:00:06.983-08:002010-03-03T10:00:06.983-08:00Something else to consider in defining the market,...Something else to consider in defining the market, is gifted students who, for whatever reason, are not well served by SPS advanced learning. Off the top of my head, these include:<br /><br />Spectrum-qualified students in the South End and crowded parts of the North End, particularly in Middle School.<br /><br />APP outliers, those who need to work more than 2 grade levels above standard.<br /><br />Kids who are in the 98th percetile in either verbal or math, but not both.<br /><br />Kids whose IQ is in the 98th percentile, but whose achievemet scores are not. <br /><br />"twice gifted" kids with high IQs and learning or behavioral disabilities.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-14204922571707462382010-03-03T09:20:31.434-08:002010-03-03T09:20:31.434-08:00A good resource for homeschooling is WAVA. www.k12...A good resource for homeschooling is WAVA. www.k12.com. You can homeschool and have access to all their classes for free. In K-8 you can progress at your own pace, by accelerating, and/or exploring any topic in more depth on your own. <br /><br />A co-op model could possibly leverage some of this material.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-45892058075315139142010-03-02T22:24:19.305-08:002010-03-02T22:24:19.305-08:00As part of a family that is capital-D Disappointed...As part of a family that is capital-D Disappointed in the experience my children are having at Thurgood Marshall, I am someone who's thinking about better alternatives to APP every day. <br /><br />I know a wonderful family that recently pulled their kids out of Thurgood Marshall to homeschool them instead. And now they're learning Spanish with other homeschool kids the parents found, and one of the kids is exploring his interest in Shakespeare, and none of them have to worry about random playground violence anymore. <br /><br />Homeschooling is not the most practical answer for most people. But if a group of fed-up parents could find--or create--an affordable school that offered some of the great aspects of homeschooling without demanding the huge time commitment from already overextended parents, I would bet that a good number of APP parents might be interested.Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046848557198076031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-2535985424240990882010-03-02T19:32:38.405-08:002010-03-02T19:32:38.405-08:00The idea of a gifted program that is an alternativ...The idea of a gifted program that is an alternative to APP and private is an interesting idea. For us to consider, though, it would have be located in the south end.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-27225725189516444862010-03-02T16:51:03.312-08:002010-03-02T16:51:03.312-08:00How hard would it be to come up with some sort of ...How hard would it be to come up with some sort of co-op homeschool model? I believe there are such things in other areas. Maybe could rent some office space or storefront pretty cheap for a place to gather, then coordinate between online classes, field trips, mentors, on and on. Homeschooler groups can schedule classes at art studios, gymnastics, swimming and more during the day when most kids are confined in school. Such a model would allow the group to move back to the original philosophy of the Individual Progress Program.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-53777900385337244162010-03-02T14:55:56.177-08:002010-03-02T14:55:56.177-08:00Arch, Lori, Helen, and Friends,
I would fully be ...Arch, Lori, Helen, and Friends,<br /><br />I would fully be in support of an independent secular APP school for my kids in the North end of Seattle.<br /><br />However, I think that there are only three models: <br /><br />1- Co-op with low fees, <br />2- Private or semi-private w/ big fees, <br />3- Charter School [*]<br /><br />Building a grass-roots co-op school is not actually that hard. It would take about a year or two to do all the details, and as Lori suggested needs a good business model. There are a lot of talented parents with good skills to bring to the table.<br /><br />But, there is a real cost to families - the cost of a working parent's time that now goes to getting a school started. If I am 'donating' X number of hours during a working day to support a new school (i.e. co-op/charter model), then I am not supporting my family with my salary. <br /><br />Supposing I am paid (modestly) to build this school, am I realistically going to earn enough to cover my kids' fees to build a new school that I can't currently afford?<br /><br />[*] It looks like Charter Schools are NOT an option in WA, requiring a change to the legislation <a href="http://www.wacharterschools.org/" rel="nofollow">WA Charter Schools</a>. <br /><br />How long does it take to change the legislation? How long does it take to build a school? You're going to need a lot of passionate parents of APP/Spectrum qualified Kindergarteners to see this whole thing through.Grace | Fashion Plantshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874880027878443221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-48660468270308023792010-03-02T12:30:57.451-08:002010-03-02T12:30:57.451-08:00Class size is one of the big differences between r...Class size is one of the big differences between religious and secular private schools, and one of the ways they keep the costs down. Catholic schools have similar class sizes to what public schools are supposed to have (22 in K, 25 in Elementary, and IIRC up to 30 in middle, at the one I toured).<br /><br />They also have lower facilities costs, with old buildings long-ago paid for, well-maintained wooden desks that looked to be 1950s era, and ratty carpet to rival any public school.<br /><br />And yet, they manage to offer languages, art, music, sports, and an ALO-type of acceleration, going so far as to send an 8th grader over to Seattle Prep to take Calculus.<br /><br />It seems possible that a secular private school could emulate the model of larger classes and low facilities cost to provide a similar service without the relgious aspect. Such a school might be a good tenant for the community center at the old MLK school, if it gets approved.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-84978750003286593572010-03-02T10:35:42.836-08:002010-03-02T10:35:42.836-08:00Personally I would never go for a private school t...Personally I would never go for a private school that didn't have significantly smaller class sizes than 22/23. To me that's the absolute key thing you're paying for. But I no longer have elementary-age kids anyway.<br /><br />In a lot of ways, it's not the education part of school that's difficult or expensive to replace; it's the childcare part. If you have to give up earnings to homeschool, that may be more expensive than any private school ever, but if you don't have to, then it can be the cheapest private school ever. Typically people find a middle ground somewhere.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-50968549574066297472010-03-02T09:57:32.450-08:002010-03-02T09:57:32.450-08:00"A business model that intends to provide mor..."A business model that intends to provide more for lower tuition is not a realistic one."<br /><br />I don't think that's what anyone suggested. I started the conversation in this direction by saying that I think there is a need for private, secular options that middle class families can afford and others have confirmed that if you don't have grandparents helping out financially or aren't willing or able to mortgage your home, some of the current private options are not options at all. The first step in establishing a new business is identifying need and knowing your market. The next step is determining if indeed you can provide the service. My bias is that there is a need for lower priced options. Perhaps it can be done!<br /><br />I know at one private school, they have about 15 children per class with one teacher and one aide. I even said to myself on the tour, "Well, now I see why it costs so much!" If someone were to start a new private school for gifted children, I would argue that it wouldn't necessarily need to replicate that model with those class ratios. Could a school be affordable if it had class sizes of 22-23 per teacher? I would consider a school like that if in fact the children were at similar academic levels and ability (as in APP) and if the curriculum were rigorous and academically sound (and no EDM) and if the school were truly committed to success. <br /><br />I really worry that SPS is not committed to APP. How else do you explain splitting the program without the curriculum in place, in direct opposition to what was recommended in the APP audit? Everything else in the district is moving toward standardization, making all schools identical (at least on paper). I wonder how long APP can continue to exist in this environment. I hope I'm wrong, but it's definitely a concern in the back of my mind as we consider moving to Lowell for 2010/2011.<br /><br />So ArchStanton, you aren't getting a lot of folks signing up to help with the endeavor, perhaps because this blog isn't widely read? I don't know. Personally, I'm really risk averse, don't have the skills for such a massive undertaking, and work full-time, all of which make me a poor candidate for starting a new school. Yet, I find the idea very intriguing and would want to stay in the loop.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-60447893177223897502010-03-02T00:15:17.685-08:002010-03-02T00:15:17.685-08:00"Would you prefer to pay tuition that would p..."Would you prefer to pay tuition that would presumably be more reasonable that that of the established, pricey private schools?"<br /><br />Early on in your process you should take a look at what these pricey schools actually spend money on. The short answer is this: Teachers - but those teachers STILL make less than their public school equivalents. Even at a big fancy-looking school like Bush, with a huge tuition, the tuition is not enough to cover basic operating costs.<br /><br />It is true that new private schools tend to have lower tuition at first. That is primarily because they often begin around a few teachers/administrators who are working for a fraction of a reasonable salary because they believe in the project and want to see it get off the ground. A secondary reason is that in early years they are missing many of the services that most parents expect them to have (eg. in-house nurse, ) As schools mature, and salaries reach sustainable levels (you can't attract good young teachers at $22,000 a year forever) tuition goes up, along with the need to find additional revenue streams.<br /><br />I guess what I am saying is this - fancy private schools are not full of people making lots of money off tuition dollars. Administrators make less than public school administrators. Teachers make significantly less than public school teachers. Everyone involved works longer hours; everyone involved makes more sacrifices. A business model that intends to provide more for lower tuition is not a realistic one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-41594616867045075582010-03-01T21:58:00.260-08:002010-03-01T21:58:00.260-08:00Let me reframe my previous post:
I'm less i...Let me reframe my previous post: <br /><br />I'm less interested in how people feel about existing private gifted schools than whether enough people would be willing to work to create a new option.<br /><br />I know that there are several APP parents that are lawyers, teachers, managers, and technical and real estate professionals that could potentially contribute to the creation of a new school. I know that there are plenty of APP parents that are dissatisfied with at least some aspects of SPS/APP, but don't feel that they have any alternatives. I know that the existing private schools receive many more applications than they have seats - even in this down economy. I know that people are paying to supplement their children's education - especially in math. That is why I think that a new gifted school may be a viable prospect, provided that enough people are willing to take the risk of creating one. So...<br /><br />Would you seriously consider leaving SPS APP for a new startup gifted school? Do you know others who would consider doing so?<br /><br />Would you prefer to pay tuition that would presumably be more reasonable that that of the established, pricey private schools? OR<br /><br />Would you be interested in a co-op gifted private school? Would you be willing and able to participate and contribute to the operations and maintenance of a co-op school?ArchStantonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10746480698492983438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-69843678812780525192010-03-01T20:04:19.517-08:002010-03-01T20:04:19.517-08:00Which private schools offer a gifted curriculum? I...Which private schools offer a gifted curriculum? I only know of Seattle Country Day and Evergreen. Do other private schools even offer differentiated curriculum for gifted students?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-58441457273650801572010-03-01T09:40:44.095-08:002010-03-01T09:40:44.095-08:00Well, I can only speak to my experience. My daugh...Well, I can only speak to my experience. My daughter was at one of those 17K a year private gifted schools through second grade. We were one of those middle class families that barely could scrap together the tuition every month (no grandparents helping, made too much for financial aid, second child who also was in private school). We drove old cars, never went on vacation (though my daughter liked to tell us of all the places in Europe that her friends were going for spring break), and basically mortgaged our life for this school. She's now at Lowell, and we're incredibly happy. I like the kids much better at Lowell and for me, it's all about the peer group. I do find the large classes a drag, but for 17K a year (post tax), I'm willing to deal with it. I think that the teachers at Lowell and the curriculum are as good (if not better in some respects) to that at her prior school. Each family has to weigh the pros and cons, but compared to the rarified air at the private school, I'd take Lowell any day. Just my 2 cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-4226276560672093402010-02-27T12:10:00.867-08:002010-02-27T12:10:00.867-08:00My experience in private school is this: grandpare...My experience in private school is this: grandparents finance a huge amount (if you did not win the tech job lottery, that is) at our school, including us.<br /><br />The public schools should be able to teach all kids and I guess in the burbs they do a better job. Not all of us want to live in the burbs, however. <br /><br />The better schools cost well over $16000 for elementary school and certainly up to $25K for middle and HS.Donna & Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04288137170747823068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-7325493776905287902010-02-27T11:17:03.165-08:002010-02-27T11:17:03.165-08:00Matheia's close -- annual tuition $10,600 (5% ...Matheia's close -- annual tuition $10,600 (5% discount if you pay a year upfront). They're quite small, though. Most newer schools start out under $10K and then inch up as they develop their reputation.<br /><br />An awful lot of people I know have paid for private school either through parental assistance, or by refinancing their houses. The refi route is probably a lot less available than it was. <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-6458142665387033632010-02-27T10:16:40.047-08:002010-02-27T10:16:40.047-08:00ArchStanton, we have a first grader in our neighbo...ArchStanton, we have a first grader in our neighborhood school and are leaning toward moving to Lowell for next year. So I'm not in the "ready to leave APP for private" camp, obviously. <br /><br />I'll just say that with what little investigation we've done of the private schools, there seems to be a need for secular schools that charge more reasonable tuition. The schools we know of or that others tell us to go look at are $14-17K per year in tuition alone. Some families can get financial aid, but others are in the position of making too much for aid but not enough to afford those fees without significant impact on every other facet of life. And even then, it might not be sustainable for more than a year or two, and no one wants to enter a program wondering how long you can afford to stay there.<br /><br />If someone had a good private program for under $10K tuition, I bet the school would fill quickly with families who aren't entirely satisfied with SPS but just can't afford the higher priced options.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-2764183853356571802010-02-26T22:35:42.972-08:002010-02-26T22:35:42.972-08:00From the moderator: A comment by an anonymous trol...<b>From the moderator</b>: A comment by an anonymous troll was deleted from this thread. If you want to post something disparaging on this blog, I am happy to allow it, but please put your name on it.Greg Lindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09216403000599463072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-8410661237936654332010-02-26T19:36:42.581-08:002010-02-26T19:36:42.581-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-24087666390455726862010-02-26T16:28:00.491-08:002010-02-26T16:28:00.491-08:00How about a Straw Poll?
Background: Our family ha...How about a Straw Poll?<br /><br />Background: Our family has continued to explore and apply to private schools this year and we know of a few other families that have done the same. We also have heard of at least one family pulling out of T. Marshall because they or their child were feeling too uncomfortable there and we know of other families leaving APP because they are dissatisfied with the math curriculum and perceived instability of APP and SPS.<br /><br />Unfortunately, <em>(parents of young gifted kids take note)</em> gifted private school seats are few and far between past kindergarten or first grade and it seems that there are always more applicants than spaces available, which leads me to think that there might be room for another gifted private or co-op school in Seattle. Of course, there have always been parents grousing about homeschooling or starting some kind of school of their own, but is it really only a pipe dream?<br /><br />There are lot of considerations for something like this to work - I'll start with these questions:<br />Who would really be interested in leaving the APP program for an alternative gifted school? Is there enough of a critical mass to make this a viable option? What model would appeal to you: a small homeschool co-op, a new private school for gifted kids, something in between, or some other model I haven't mentioned?ArchStantonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10746480698492983438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-44295385047534716522010-02-26T15:04:56.790-08:002010-02-26T15:04:56.790-08:00In addition to the cuts that impact all public sch...In addition to the cuts that impact all public schools, such as the counselors, there are at least two problems specific to elementary APP: (1) PTA annual fund donations, which are used to fund arts and drama, among other things, are well below the already scaled back expectations for this year, and (2) Thurgood Marshall is in danger of losing Title I funding because, with the addition of APP students, they may no longer hit the threshold for percentage of students qualifying for the free lunch program.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com