tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post4249210803502941784..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: Open threadAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-15777984668604838622015-05-27T11:28:53.515-07:002015-05-27T11:28:53.515-07:00You should contact your principal and ask what wou...You should contact your principal and ask what would be possible for next year. If she won't allow him to walk to another level of math or be placed in a classroom with another group of advanced math students, you'll need to supplement at home if you want him to progress in math next year.<br /><br />You could also request a transfer to any school with a walk to math program - it wouldn't need to have a Spectrum program.<br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-29361601981044958682015-05-27T09:34:38.395-07:002015-05-27T09:34:38.395-07:00What do you do with a child who is unevenly advanc...What do you do with a child who is unevenly advanced--i.e. I have a 5 year old who is reading around C/D level (approximately on grade level for K) but is eating up 2nd/3rd grade math. He qualified for Spectrum but I didn't have the achievement testing done since I didn't think he would make the reading mark. Unfortunately, it is unlikely he'll get off the Spectrum waitlist. How did kids not at Lincoln get to work ahead in math at non-Spectrum schools? (Our default is Green Lake). Francescanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-13337206316769211522015-05-26T10:16:39.359-07:002015-05-26T10:16:39.359-07:00Anon on the 23rd at 11:02 - I wish people would ta...Anon on the 23rd at 11:02 - I wish people would take the 2 seconds it takes to add a name. Responding is nearly impossible when everyone is anon.<br /><br />One of the anons said I thought the program was going away (I didn't say that), but the program must and will change, and I am not optimistic that it will change in the right direction. Unfortunately, I think the program will continue to be watered down. I think the WA state law, that was supposed to help with meeting the needs of AL, actually had some unintended consequences in that it allows "differentiation," which we all know doesn't and won't happen at neighborhood schools. I know some states require AL kids to have IEPs, and maybe that's something to consider. My child started in APP at Lowell, and the program has deteriorated dramatically. I wonder if people who are happy with the program are recent joiners? My child went to HIMS for a time, but we bailed because it was so poor, and we have enrolled in a private school for next year.<br /><br />The program has no curricula and no one appears to be watching what happens in the classroom. The only benefit of all the past splits is that we know people around the district, so we hear about other schools. HIMS doesn't work for many (most?) kids and JAMS parents are not all happy either. WMS seems better, but that may be because there are teachers there who remember the olden days and are able to make the best out of the non-existent curricula.<br /><br />I know that this current program didn't work for us, and I don't have a kid who was doing calculus at 7. I have a kid who loves to learn and who has been really frustrated with SPS and lack of rigor.<br /><br />-resignedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-42578519443344518412015-05-23T14:57:51.226-07:002015-05-23T14:57:51.226-07:00The program may continue to exist on paper, but wh...The program may continue to exist on paper, but where is the evidence the program is serving students that need a significantly more challenging program? As anon@12:04 suggested, Robinson is not the answer (neither is private school for many families). APP used to serve those students working well above grade level, while providing a pathway for 4 years of high school. While students have access to AP classes come high school, there is a huge void at the middle school level. If students aren't served through the HCC program, they really have limited options.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-63773213558351173602015-05-23T12:04:26.570-07:002015-05-23T12:04:26.570-07:00Anon @ 9:48, while I applaud your optimism, I don&...Anon @ 9:48, while I applaud your optimism, I don't see the basis forbit. Rigor will be more available to all? I don't see it. You think neighborhood schools will suddenly start providing curricula that are appropriate for kids working several years beyond grade level??? More likely we see a bit of movement toward the middle--a bit of increased rigor for gen ed, but decreased for HC. That is , if these services really make their way to all schools. Were you referring primarily to HS and increased AP offerings?<br /><br />One other thing--people always throw out the idea of the Robinson Center programs, as if that's the natural route for some of these kids and can be a substitute for SPS's poor HC services in middle and/or high school. The fact is, however, that the RC only takes a small number of kids each year, and they draw from from the wider Seattle region, as well as other states and even other countries. Transition School, for the youngest group, generally takes kids after 8th grade--so it's not really a middle school solution. They also don't seem to accept many kids from SPS--maybe only one or two a year on average. It's really not the answer to SPS's problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-28440441678531871302015-05-23T11:51:46.501-07:002015-05-23T11:51:46.501-07:00I have an HC student served well and know one goin...I have an HC student served well and know one going to any Ivy not from Garfield or IBX. CSIP's aren't usually worth the electrons they're displayed with. I'm just saying if parents want to get service locally they have the right to get it and staff should be more receptive than in the past. Will it happen? I hope so and am trying to look towards a better future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-62767135722148769662015-05-23T11:02:00.277-07:002015-05-23T11:02:00.277-07:00Where do you see highly capable kids being better ...Where do you see highly capable kids being better served now? Or are you assuming that will be the result of the new policy? I don't agree with resigned - I don't think the program is going away. I also don't expect any great improvements based on a policy that will not be enforced. <br /><br />Schools were "required" to include plans for serving highly capable students in their CSIP this year. How many did at least that much? Here are the <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/modules/cms/pages.phtml?sessionid=ebba820fdd3480d0bf34cb452449de26&pageid=228800&sessionid=ebba820fdd3480d0bf34cb452449de26" rel="nofollow">CSIPs</a> for every school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-56909614241347180402015-05-23T09:48:58.222-07:002015-05-23T09:48:58.222-07:00I'm very hopeful about the program. HC kids ar...I'm very hopeful about the program. HC kids are getting better served at all schools.<br />Even a student coming out of the cohort for high school not at Garfield or IBX, can get all the classes they need to be very competitive in college applications.<br />The HCC may not be the best fit for kids in the 145+ range, but other options open up like Robinson for middle schoolers and early entry at UW for juniors.<br />I think we'll see more kids staying local, the mandate to provide service at every school will be tested by parents and some schools will make it work. I think non-HC parents will see the benefits of keeping HC students in that rigor will be more available to all and school staff will have to get used to HC kids and their parents and not push them away to the cohort. <br /><br />There is common ground to be found between HC parents and neighborhood school administrators, it is going to take some understanding on both sides to make it work. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-80483212155666425562015-05-21T11:16:12.447-07:002015-05-21T11:16:12.447-07:00IPP was not 75 kids spread over grades 1-12. The ...IPP was not 75 kids spread over grades 1-12. The program started slowly, with just a few grades. The oldest kids moved up to Garfield together, so the high school program didn't start until that first group of kids got old enough. I know this is a minor point, but I wanted to clarify that there was concern about cohort size at the time and classes weren't of 6.25 kids per grade.<br /><br />I have posted this thought many times over the years, but I believe the first thing that needs to change is people's attitudes towards AL, both parents and district staff. I am sure we are all familiar with what happens on the Save Seattle Schools site whenever AL comes up, even if AL is a secondary topic. People need to understand that some kids have a talent with learning like others have in sports, art, etc. The kids in the program did not all go to crooked psychologists to buy fake testing or petition (enough already on the SSS blog kept talking about families "petitioning") their way in. I have no idea what "petitioning" one's way in would even mean.<br /><br />I think changes will eventually need to be made to all AL programs in the district, but nothing can be done until there is capacity. No one wants all the APP kids to go back to their neighborhood schools. Principals should not be allowed to say that they "don't believe in AL" and choose not to do it. Differentiation cannot be opt-in for teachers, but must be a part of their jobs, whether they believe in AL or not. This is another thing that cannot be done with the current class sizes.<br /><br />I am not hopeful about the program. Selfishly, I am happy my kid is a bit older and will be leaving the system in a few short years because I don't see the program lasting.<br /><br />-resignedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-47874302698262442032015-05-21T11:05:12.786-07:002015-05-21T11:05:12.786-07:00On one hand, the state "legislature finds tha...On one hand, the state "legislature finds that, for highly capable students, access to accelerated learning and enhanced instruction is access to a basic education." On the other hand, you have a district that seems to be doing their best to not provide anything too different, either because some think it is inequitable, or there is simply a lack of willpower or oversight. I don't think even the not-so-extreme outliers are being served in the current program.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-53489255605457729922015-05-21T10:05:04.875-07:002015-05-21T10:05:04.875-07:00(cont'd)
When I think about elementary school...(cont'd)<br /><br />When I think about elementary school, it seems like only about half the day is actually spent receiving instruction in core subjects. Could we change the staffing ratios such that kids had smaller classes for the core instruction then were in larger classes for art, PE, music, etc., as well as lunch and recess? Or maybe instead of having Teacher A send her class to music first period and Teacher B sending his 2nd period, they both send half their class during each, then they can essentially break their kids down into four levels of ability, then teach smaller classes that match. The tradeoff would be that they don't get that empty prep period when the kids are away at "music," but the smaller class size might make it worth it. They'd still need time to collaborate with other teachers though, but maybe that's what those half-days are for? I don't know, I'm just trying to brainstorm... <br /><br />From what I can tell, there are very few who think the current system is working well--but most in it agree it's better than nothing. And since nothing feels like the only alternative, we fight tooth and nail to keep the inadequate system we have. But are there truly no other options? It feels like a lose-lose situation. People occasionally throw out ideas about what an ideal program should look like, but there's never an accompanying roadmap that makes it seem like even a remote possibility. The ideal, or even the good, feels out of reach. Is it? Or can we come up with something that is both better and FEASIBLE (politically, capacity-wise, contractually, logistically, academically, etc.) <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-56348283796700396432015-05-21T10:04:10.061-07:002015-05-21T10:04:10.061-07:00I think most of us with any real understanding of ...I think most of us with any real understanding of gifted children and HCC would agree that extreme outliers are not well-served by the current program. We would also agree, however, that some sort of special program for these kids is absolutely essential--not just to the academic progress of such kids, but perhaps more importantly, their overall health and well-being. They need something different than most kids--not better, just different. <br /><br />I think there are many supporters of gifted ed who would also agree that some of the kids currently receiving AL programs/services (HCC and Spectrum) don't necessarily require instruction that is fundamentally different from gen ed instruction--more challenging and more advanced, yes, but not different in approach and delivery. These are the kids who need more challenge than gen ed classrooms have proven able or willing to provide under the current circumstances. The question is whether or not that has to be. If gen ed classes were able to provide appropriate challenge, and if all neighborhood high schools were able to offer similarly challenging offerings, I think many families would opt to stay in their neighborhood schools. The increased level of challenge in neighborhood schools would likely please many gen ed families and allow for greater opportunities for students ready to stretch. <br /><br />The question in my mind is how could we possibly get to something like this given the current system and constraints? We can't just return a bulk of the elementary HCC kids to their neighborhood schools--not only are there capacity barriers, but they've been working too far ahead to get adequate services there. <br /><br />Would a transition plan work? Say you develop criteria for who would qualify for a much smaller, more focused program to serve those extreme outliers. (And to me, you'd want to set those criteria to allow for a large enough cohort to support the social development of those kids. Seventy-five kids spread over all grades like the old IPP program seems way too small. I'd want to see at least 20 per grade, even if that means dropping to more like 3 SDs above average.) Kids accepted into the new, smaller program coul join the current HCC cohorts, which could be allowed to continue on until they run their course, but maybe they could get some additional individualized planning. <br /><br />Kids who would have been newly eligible for Spectrum or HCC but are not a good fit for the "outlier" program are the ones who would see the first big changes. They would be staying at their local school--which would HAVE to start providing support. How can this be done? Can it even be done? We've argued and argued over differentiation, and the verdict seems to be that while it is indeed possible, it's hard to do--and damn near impossible with larger class sizes. Walk-to's seem to hold some promise, although there are drawbacks there as well. So are there other, creative options--or are we just stuck? Is there a way to work around the large class sizes? <br /><br />(cont'd)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-62931441111843718022015-05-20T21:05:46.139-07:002015-05-20T21:05:46.139-07:00Nelson Mandela finished his boarding school in 2/3...Nelson Mandela finished his boarding school in 2/3 the traditional time. Jesus at age 12 was found teaching and discussing the Torah in an impressive way after a holiday. Many of our presidents nobel prize winners skipped grades. The brain does not grow sitting in a chair bored. One must be challenged to learn and grow, unless of course you are God incarnate- then any class would do. You make arguments for APP, not mandated chair sitting. <br />-BrightAndCitizensAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-51777432175231114092015-05-20T13:31:34.831-07:002015-05-20T13:31:34.831-07:00the community part regarding fellow students is mi...the community part regarding fellow students is missingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-74081737042008993102015-05-20T12:43:57.632-07:002015-05-20T12:43:57.632-07:00And you can provide all those opportunities in abi...And you can provide all those opportunities in ability-based classrooms. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-85909047487591124772015-05-20T12:31:11.515-07:002015-05-20T12:31:11.515-07:00
A basic education is an evolving program of in... <br /><br />A basic education is an evolving program of instruction that is intended to provide students with the opportunity to become responsible and respectful global citizens, to contribute to their economic well-being and that of their families and communities, to explore and understand different perspectives, and to enjoy productive and satisfying lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-24201962808573840582015-05-20T10:45:04.689-07:002015-05-20T10:45:04.689-07:00Lincoln and Frederick Douglass were self taught. H...Lincoln and Frederick Douglass were self taught. How can you even make comparisons with a time that outright prevented reading from being taught? <br /><br /><i>There's the rub because schools do have the mandate to do more than just instill academics, they are explicitly required to teach community values, respect for others, acceptance of others, citizenship, etc.</i><br /><br />The state "recognizes the value" of honesty, respect for self and others, personal responsibility, self-discipline...etc., but it does not explicitly <i>require</i> schools to teach these values. It leaves it up to districts. There is no mandate. That is not to say they are less important than academics, just that they are not mandated as part of basic education.<br /><br />http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=28A.150.211<br /><br />The state describes the goals of a basic education here:<br /><br />http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=28A.150.210Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-21056872389568801162015-05-20T10:04:25.006-07:002015-05-20T10:04:25.006-07:00Can't resist getting off-topic here. Einstein ...Can't resist getting off-topic here. Einstein not talking until age five is an urban myth. There is now substantial documentation in various biographies that he was speaking in full sentences by age 2 1/2.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-70956158460891208472015-05-19T18:29:53.418-07:002015-05-19T18:29:53.418-07:00I daresay kids can learn respect, collaboration an...I daresay kids can learn respect, collaboration and positive social values in an ability-grouped classroom. <br /><br />And ability-grouped classes can present a greater range of academic abilities than what you'd find in a typical gen ed class. That's the nature of the tail of the bell curve. It's not like the kids in gifted classes are all clones. <br /><br />Is exposure to different academic abilities really the issue? Or is your true concern more about segregation re: income, race, etc.? LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-19819390843286608612015-05-19T16:59:05.393-07:002015-05-19T16:59:05.393-07:00every child should have the opportunity to reach t...every child should have the opportunity to reach their potential, it's that simple.<br /><br />If segregated ability-grouped classrooms work best for academic potential, that's fine, but what about a child's potential as a community member- as a co-worker-as a humanitarian?<br /><br />Are those qualities fostered as well in a classroom segregated by cognitive ability and achievement?<br /><br />There's the rub because schools do have the mandate to do more than just instill academics, they are explicitly required to teach community values, respect for others, acceptance of others, citizenship,etc.<br /> So how can students in Seattle spend 12 years in publicly funded school without working with students of differing academic levels in academic classes and gain these skills?<br /><br />PE and music don't accomplish that to the degree that LA and SS and science classes do. Certainly all kids have ideas about science and government and literature that are valid and interesting despite their level of cognitive function. I dare say some of more pervasive social mores and world views were not originated by the intellectually superior.<br /><br />Was Jesus highly capable, Buddha, Gandhi, Mandela, Lincoln, Marx, Julius Caesar, Frederick Douglas?<br /><br />Was Golda Meir, Angel Merkel, Harriet Tubman, John Muir, John Brown?<br /> Einstein himself wouldn't have been in HCC as he wasn't even talking at age 5.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-73560348338361211022015-05-19T09:18:16.625-07:002015-05-19T09:18:16.625-07:00Umm, unified sports teams are in most middle &...Umm, unified sports teams are in most middle & high schools in the district. My kids have not had the bad experiences with them that you describe as the inevitable experience with mixed-ability sports teams.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-38594949090862456552015-05-19T08:55:28.282-07:002015-05-19T08:55:28.282-07:00We HAVE mixed ability sports teams already. It'...We HAVE mixed ability sports teams already. It's just that those who aren't good enough spend more time on the bench or sidelines--and when they get on the field, none of their "teammates" pass or throw to them. A small number of people can carry the team, so the coach doesn't really have to worry about those who aren't very good.<br /><br />On a mixed ability "academics team" however, the rules are different. Everyone has to get equal playing time and everyone's contribution (or lack thereof) counts the same. The coach (teacher) thus cares a lot about the weaker players--so much so that practices ONLY focus on them and their weaknesses, while the more skilled players screw around on the sidelines. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-34068696770640049702015-05-19T07:13:19.988-07:002015-05-19T07:13:19.988-07:00Nobody would propose a "mixed ability basketb...Nobody would propose a "mixed ability basketball team" because sports are important. <br /><br />Academics are not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-50483894219500593542015-05-18T14:47:14.139-07:002015-05-18T14:47:14.139-07:001. Tracking and ability-based grouping are NOT th...1. Tracking and ability-based grouping are NOT the same. <br /><br />2. ALL EVIDENCE shows that ability-based grouping is the single MOST effective way to support growth for any group of non-SpEd students. Even the work on cluster-grouping says that it is a not as effective as ability-based grouping, but, when ability-based grouping is not possible (i.e., not enough students), then, it is a less-desirable but better-than-nothing alternative to doing nothing. Some papers come right out and say that ability-based grouping is politically unsavory for the adults, so then they discuss how to do the work-around solution of 'clustering'. <br /><br />3. Mixed ability grouping actually harms NOT JUST the top 10th percentile, but, is damaging for the bottom 10th percentile. Yes. Think of it this way. If you were put on a 'mixed ability' basketball team, and, you are the worst player in your grade, and, you had 3 guys on the bench who were the best, and, they were running like jack rabbits and dunking the ball and making every lay-up, would you want to get up off the bench and attempt to play, when, you could barely dribble? Research shows that having those groups together stymies growth in the bottom 10th. Damages those kids. Of that, there is no question. So, we can all pretend that that research-based data doesn't exist, which clearly is the politically popular thing to say and the most politically correct thing to do, or, you can focus on kids and help them grow academically, which all kids go to school in the first place: kids spend time in the classrooms to learn academic skills. They are not there to sit beside the 'right mix of kids', they are there to learn and grow math, reading, writing and critical thinking skills as much as possible.<br /><br />So, public education is pushing something that is cherished because social justice matters. Good intentions. But the road to... Sadly, by trying to do the right thing, they are harming the kids they most want to help. <br /><br /><i>"..."progressive education," which holds that social injustice, institutionalized racism, white prejudice, and other societal ills cause the achievement gap. Progressives want to fix the achievement gap by moving underachieving students closer to high-achieving students whenever possible, arguing that tracking and sorting are evils that create underachieving “ghettos” that perpetuate, or even cause, the gap..." <br /><br />...So progressives push for underachievers to spend more time with achievers who will model desirable behavior..." </i><br /><br /><br />But the problem is the 'achiever' is there to learn too. She is not there to be the teacher of some other child; that is not her job. <br /><br />Is it that some kids are less entitled to an education than others? <br /><br />Kids who are 'good to go' should not strive to reach as high as they can go because others are not there right along side of them? I hope not. I hope ALL kids are equally deserving of an education, regardless of their achievement status. How ironic then is that inherently contradictory value of 'progressives' (who believe themselves to be the guardians of the promise of a civil society), that some children are just MORE equal, and those more entitled ones are the ones to focus on, even if it comes at the expense of other student's learning. <br /><br />There are obviously very strong sentiments and very diverse perspectives about these issues, because all children rely on adults to have their needs met, and so naturally parents care very deeply about doing right by children, no matter what they think is best or most appropriate. We hopefully can all respect that and each other. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-33626497414112886502015-05-18T13:10:01.656-07:002015-05-18T13:10:01.656-07:00Two random questions:
1) My kid is not yet eleme...Two random questions: <br /><br />1) My kid is not yet elementary age, but he's zoned for Lowell, which I see has a Spectrum program. Obviously he hasn't been tested yet, but I want to be familiar with potential options, and I never read anything about Spectrum at Lowell (it's new there, I see). Any experiences? <br /><br />2) Speaking of Lowell, I see from their website that their mascot is a dragon, which I also see is the mascot at Lincoln, and then I saw a comment here referring to "Lowell/Lincoln dragons"? What's up with that? <br /><br />-Curiouser and curiouserAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com