tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post694035076186369960..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: Social Studies at Thurgood Marshall and its Rippling EffectsAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-59352644415725270192016-06-01T10:46:00.926-07:002016-06-01T10:46:00.926-07:00There are so many factors to consider.
It is poss...There are so many factors to consider.<br /><br />It is possible that the HCC program is simply not academically rigorous on the whole. Students could be coasting along not really learning much, and the grade level assessments might actually be an indication of a poorly implemented program. <br /><br />The data is also based on a single year of SBAC testing (where's the comparable MSP data?). One year does not make a trend. The 2007 APP review did show similar differences in reading/ELA scores, so it is worth looking into similar data for prior years. You'd think they would look at the scores for at least the last three years. The current presentation of the data is just too limited to justify major programmatic changes. <br /><br />I'm not sure how much supplementation varies for HC qualified students in the cohort vs not in the cohort. We have provided supplementation on an ongoing basis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-64859834355479475262016-06-01T08:59:22.356-07:002016-06-01T08:59:22.356-07:00One more thing: Many of the issues noted above als...One more thing: Many of the issues noted above also make it problematic to do simple test score comparisons between HCC students and those who are HCC-qualified but opt not to participate. Would you expect those in the cohort to score higher, because they had the benefit of the program? Would you expect those who stay at the neighborhood school to do better, because they may have been more "ahead" to start with and/or maybe had more tailored independent study and home-based supplementation? It's hard to say, which makes it difficult to interpret such test results in any meaningful way. <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-56711964972363581752016-06-01T08:44:05.057-07:002016-06-01T08:44:05.057-07:00@ Pixie, you mistakenly assume that because someon...@ Pixie, you mistakenly assume that because someone tests into HCC yet doesn't opt into the cohort that it necessarily means they are receiving successful differentiation at their current school. You then take it a step further and also assume that if neighborhood-based differentiation is working for them, then it's evidence that it would work elsewhere.<br /><br />Unfortunately, you're wrong on both counts.<br /><br />People opt out of the cohort for many reasons, including non-academic ones. The neighborhood school is often closer and much more convenient. Maybe bussing won't work for a family. Maybe they want to keep siblings at the same school. The kid has great friends they really don't want to leave. The school offers something else the family really values, like environmental ed or language immersion. They are concerned about HCC splits, relocation, etc. They don't think their kid/family will fit in. And so on. Some families prioritize non-academic factors over an academically appropriate education and decide it's worth opting out of HCC even if it means their child won't receive the differentiation they should.<br /><br />Parents also opt out of HCC for academic reasons, but even these cases aren't evidence that local differentiation is successful. For example, some parents opt out because the HCC doesn't have a reputation of being all that challenging academically, so what's the point of all the disruption? Some opt out because their student needs more advanced instruction than even HCC can provide, and they'll have to find alternate instruction anyway. Some opt out because they know they can provide enough supplementation at home to make up for the deficient education at school. You get the idea. But none of these suggest that the neighborhood school works as well as or better than HCC for these kids--it's just that parents have alternate strategies to address the shortcomings. <br /><br />When it comes to HCC, selection bias is huge. Families who choose to move generally do so for different reasons than those who decide not to move. The fact that a certain number of HCC-qualified kids have opted out of the cohort is not evidence that the neighborhood school is successfully differentiating. It's simply an indicator that parents, for whatever reason, did not see the value in moving. The figure you cited also obscures the fact that many of these kids ultimately WILL move to HCC--often families try to stick it out at the neighborhood school but end up moving a year or several down the road, when they realize their efforts to get that supposed differentiation aren't working.<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-75175407218664782672016-06-01T07:36:11.952-07:002016-06-01T07:36:11.952-07:00If the data is being used to compare cohorts and t...If the data is being used to compare cohorts and to support the proposed changes, what about 5th grade and 8th grade MSP science scores? <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-23588054270684547982016-05-31T15:41:26.890-07:002016-05-31T15:41:26.890-07:00That data was useless, any conclusions drawn from ...That data was useless, any conclusions drawn from that data is a stretch and as such anyone who uses that to strength their bias and argument are lost. <br /><br />-OuchAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-77740296340225482542016-05-31T15:15:19.140-07:002016-05-31T15:15:19.140-07:00We still haven't seen detailed results of SBAC...We still haven't seen detailed results of SBAC testing (only one year's worth, remember) for HCC qualified students broken down by grade and school. Are HC qualified students who are not in the HC program disproportionately attending high achieving neighborhood schools? Are they concentrated at option schools? Are more HCC qualified students remaining in their neighborhood elementary, but moving for middle school? We don't know! The district surely has the detailed data, but only aggregated data has been released (it wasn't even broken down as elementary vs middle school). As released, I'm not sure what conclusions could be drawn from the data. The other confounding factor is inconsistent curriculum - whether in HC or not, the curriculum is all over the place, from school to school, and from classroom to classroom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-85393993826359982892016-05-31T11:59:54.919-07:002016-05-31T11:59:54.919-07:00Pixie,
Please explain the evidence-based details ...Pixie,<br /><br />Please explain the evidence-based details you used to define "success" of the HCC students who didn't join the co-hort? Evidence that their parents of 1000+ students are happy and satisfied with their decision? <br /><br />As far as I know, none exists. If it does, please link to your source.<br /><br /><br />I hope you're not referring to the district of state assessments, since they're grade-level and not an appropriate measuring stick for those in the program.<br /><br />- CuriousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-17653314019012419482016-05-31T11:43:44.988-07:002016-05-31T11:43:44.988-07:00Mr Aprilia,
The evidence of successful differenti...Mr Aprilia,<br /><br />The evidence of successful differentiation is the 1000+ HC students who choose to not participate in the cohort delivery model. These 1000+ students have been tested with the full cooperation of their parents and are receiving satisfactory service while enjoying the benefits of more socially diverse classrooms.<br /><br />I am not sure what to make of your literal interpretation of common idiomatic expressions. <br /><br />PixieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-63992238394108600532016-05-31T11:34:29.331-07:002016-05-31T11:34:29.331-07:00Exactly Charlie not a huge determinant but for wha...<br />Exactly Charlie not a huge determinant but for what gain exactly other than optics. The ALTF was all about this too. And that is why the proposed testing changes. Why should my kid's special needs not be met, because the District, the State and the vast majority of all experts (some of which SPS has paid thousands of dollars) say this idea is hogwash. <br /><br />-OuchOuchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-7323721099606363182016-05-31T07:19:24.754-07:002016-05-31T07:19:24.754-07:00Anonymous at 7:35pm, I'm curious. What survey ...Anonymous at 7:35pm, I'm curious. What survey did you take of HCC families about how far they are willing to bus their children? It wasn't that long ago that all of them in the city put their elementary-age kids on a bus to Lowell. A heat map of the homes of HCC students shows that the bulk of of them south of downtown live in the area close to Capitol Hill, so it would not be a long trip for a lot of them.<br /><br />As for whether it is a visual problem or not, I will rely on the statements of the people involved, who say that it is.<br /><br />Yes, there is concern about the under-representation of some groups in HCC, but that's not the problem that Thurgood Marshall is trying to fix, is it?<br /><br />No, the world will not end if there are general education students in HCC classes - what an absurd suggestion! The very goofiness of that idea is undoubtedly why no ever said that would be the result. What people are saying, however, (and you would know this if you were listening honestly) is that the school district is not providing the type of academic opportunity that they committed to providing. And that instead of stepping up to their commitment, the district is contemplating stepping further away from it.<br /><br />I'm curious about how and why you think it would serve the interests of a student to be placed in a class where the student is not prepared to succeed? What is to be gained, for example, from putting a third grader working at grade level in a fifth grade class?<br /><br />The push to mix general education students and HC students in a single classroom strikes me as more of a political effort than a pedagogical effort. What academic goal is furthered by it?<br /><br />If, as the school claims, they will be able to differentiate, then let them make this change contingent on providing evidence of that differentiation. Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-23928112142817285702016-05-27T19:35:08.690-07:002016-05-27T19:35:08.690-07:00The only schools south of the cut that match the H...The only schools south of the cut that match the HCC demographic (though not white enough) are Montlake and McGilvra, and they are very small schools. I don't think HCC families south of the cut want to travel north to be in a school that matches their demographics. This is not just a visual problem. It's a problem on many levels. I always think when this is brought up as a solution to "HCC demographic problem" that the underlying message is - just put us in a nearly all white school and no one will notice that we here, or that there is an unusual demographic makeup to our cohort. The world will not end if there is one gen ed kid for every three HCC kids in a social studies class. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-908102685403077562016-05-27T18:41:44.066-07:002016-05-27T18:41:44.066-07:00HCC families at Thurgood Marshall should insist on...HCC families at Thurgood Marshall should insist on social studies taught to a different Standard, as required by the policy, and evidence of the promised differentiation. If the school enters into this experiment, they should only do so with clear benchmarks for success and a willingness to undo it if those benchmarks are not met. Among those benchmarks should be ample evidence of differentiation and a set of HCC social studies Standards.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-61409610104482213792016-05-27T18:39:07.035-07:002016-05-27T18:39:07.035-07:00The problem here is largely visual. The kids in th...The problem here is largely visual. The kids in the general education program are primarily dark-skinned and the kids in HCC are primarily light-skinned. This visual contrast was created when the District decided to place HCC (then APP) at Thurgood Marshall despite a strong caution against doing exactly that by the experts from UVA who reviewed the program.<br /><br />This is a manufactured problem that could be fixed by moving HCC to a site closer to where the HCC students live in a school with demographics that more closely match the cohort, just like Board policy requires and the experts recommended.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-544084716465149632016-05-26T23:09:15.954-07:002016-05-26T23:09:15.954-07:00I appreciate the discussion and varied points on t...I appreciate the discussion and varied points on this thread. As chair of the Curriculum & Instruction Committee, I would like to share an informational update about the policy work mentioned in several of the above posts. Our 2016 committee work plan had a scheduled review/update of 2190SP (Superintendent Procedure) planned for the May meeting, but due to the backlog of other work items, it got bumped to a future C&I meeting, TBD, possibly June 13th or August 15 (there is no C&I meeting in July). The actual policy 2190 is not on the work plan at this time, but we do have some open time in the fall.<br /><br />For non-policy-wonks, take note that 2190SP is NOT a board-approved document. This is controlled by the Supt and staff but will be considered by the C&I Committee in the interest of transparency to the board and public. Any changes to the actual Policy 2090 would need to be reviewed at C&I, be forwarded to the general board meeting for introduction, and approved as a subsequent board meeting.<br /><br />-Rick<br />Rick Burkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-49313291753665058022016-05-25T16:40:41.264-07:002016-05-25T16:40:41.264-07:00The "assurances" portion of the Highly C...The "assurances" portion of the Highly Capable Annual Plan (a.k.a. our grant application) says this re: identification: "The district needs to consider students from various racial, ethnic, and socio-economic groups. Students identified for the HCP should reflect the demographics of the district." <br /><br />The WAC itself, however, is not as specific. And much of what IS in the WAC is somewhat contradictory to the idea that highly capable demographics need to match overall district demographics. For example:<br /><br /><i>A district's referral procedure for students who are highly capable may include screening procedures to eliminate students who, based on clear, current evidence, do not qualify for eligibility under WAC 392-170-055.</i> <br />So screening criteria and the establishment of qualification criteria are fine, even though we all know these may result in disproportionate enrollment.<br /><br /><i>Students nominated for selection as a highly capable student, unless eliminated through screening as provided in WAC 392-170-045, shall be assessed by qualified district personnel.</i> Again, students may be eliminated from consideration based on screening criteria, and there's no indication that screening criteria need to be different for different subgroups.<br /><br /><i>Districts shall use multiple objective criteria for identification of students who are among the most highly capable.... Each school district's board of directors shall adopt a selection policy and school district shall establish written procedures for the selection of the most highly capable students.</i> <br />Not the most highly capable in each subgroup, but the most highly capable based on the established procedures. <br /><br />Setting different criteria for different subgroups, while it may make sense as a way to offset the disproportionate impact of socioeconomic factors, potential instrument bias, etc., and while it's potentially the only way to get those district-mirroring demographics, also seems to contradict some of the WAC language. <br /><br />HFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-13937383060875871952016-05-25T15:50:12.095-07:002016-05-25T15:50:12.095-07:00@reality check (aka enough already or about time?)...@reality check (aka enough already or about time?) <br /><br />This is what WAC 392-170, Special Service Program - Highly Capable, has to say:<br /><br /><i>As used in this chapter, highly capable students are students who perform or show potential for performing at significantly advanced academic levels when compared with others of their age, experiences, or environments...These students are present not only in the general populace, but are present within all protected classes according to chapters 28A.640 and 28A.642 RCW.</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-91465514630508236972016-05-25T15:26:23.097-07:002016-05-25T15:26:23.097-07:00@reality-check: The WAC/OSPI definitions for HCC ...@reality-check: The WAC/OSPI definitions for HCC are fairly broad and having looked into this before we generally as a district meet all of them or you have to be prepared to go to court to prove otherwise. This is the case for many issues discussed here beyond just this immediate one.<br /><br />There is a requirement in state code for a yearly progress report for the HCC program that as far as I know the district is in compliance with. This is prepared each year by AL office and HCS advisory committee. <br /><br />Just like there is no definition of what highly capable is exactly, or what curriculum should be used there is no definition of continuum of services so you'd probably need a complaint to OSPI or some kind of lawsuit at the least to start a process to prove the current model doesn't comply. As far as I know, no one has ever found in a legal sense that differentiation in class doesn't satisfy this definition for example which is what I assume the district would argue if pushed to that point. I'll note the district's model is also not radically different from most of the neighboring districts. Take that for what it's worth.<br /><br />Nothing in the actual WAC code that I've found defining HCC says the demographics must match the area. There is explicit language about equitable access to testing, identification and appeals as well as notes that its subject to the states civil right codes against discrimination that apply to the school's in general. You'd probably again have to go through a process showing discrimination under these statutes with respect to the identification process. Btw: this is the one area we differ from companion districts in our allowing of private appeals. If you were following the testing process this year, you'll remember the AL dept. tried to phase that out this year and its likely they will reattempt to do so in the future.Benjamin Leishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10974191081762367425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-35685205172977018062016-05-25T15:21:05.892-07:002016-05-25T15:21:05.892-07:00I believe the fundamental issue is the perception ...I believe the fundamental issue is the perception that HCC is somehow for special kids. I think that message starts with the leadership of Advanced Learning and it leads to resentment because it magnifies the perception of exclusion.<br /><br />As far as I’m concerned, HCC is for kids that know more than their similarly aged peers based on scores on standardized tests. If parents and kids want in, the district needs to make it absolutely clear what they need to do to raise their scores to qualify.<br /><br />We have two kids in HCC. One originally didn’t qualify because of their reading scores. A year later after hard work and focus, it went up by 20 percent. Another didn’t equality because of their quant scores. A year later after hard work and focus, it went up by 15 percentiles. Both are doing just fine in HCC because we continue to support our kids and require of them above and beyond that required by the district.<br /><br />Instead of placing the responsibly on the students and the parents and saying, “this is what you have to do…”, the district takes the responsibility upon itself. And the district is going to continue to fail because by definition the district can’t raise the level of every student to the 98th percentile as compared to every other student.<br /><br />Does the principal, who’s dealing with a poorly planned collocation and a backwards mentality from Advanced Learning about who HCC is for have a right to be angry? Absolutely. But lowering the bar by getting rid of self-contained classes is a poor solution.<br /><br />- wrongheaded<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-18087042949542083432016-05-25T15:17:52.390-07:002016-05-25T15:17:52.390-07:00Some day I am going to have a seminar on the diffe...Some day I am going to have a seminar on the difference between sped and advanced learning. What we have is fine for a non-sped continuum of services. The way the statute is written, city, not district, demographics are legal for comparison demographics. Let's shoot for better for moral reasons, but you are conflating federal, IDEA law and a state specific statute. Not the same.<br />-sleeperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-59788571514632657982016-05-25T15:09:19.800-07:002016-05-25T15:09:19.800-07:00If you want to read the state WAC for Highly Capab...If you want to read the state WAC for Highly Capable (as not all info above is correct):<br /><br />http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=392-170<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-51390652350926089352016-05-25T15:04:17.679-07:002016-05-25T15:04:17.679-07:00State law requires demographics in HC programs to ...<i>State law requires demographics in HC programs to reflect students in the area (meaning district-wide demographics since the law also requires a continuum of services model, which would rebut the argument that the northend "program" reflects the area).</i><br /><br />Huh??? Your logic doesn't hold on this one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-76294506114299633732016-05-25T14:53:15.271-07:002016-05-25T14:53:15.271-07:00State law requires yearly adequate progress report...State law requires yearly adequate progress reports and changes to the program based on those reports, which must be based on a reliable, valid testing source (task force recommendations from 2013 have no standing). State law requires a continuum of services model based on student needs (which isn't being met by an optional self-contained model or so-called AL services in neighborhood schools). State law requires demographics in HC programs to reflect students in the area (meaning district-wide demographics since the law also requires a continuum of services model, which would rebut the argument that the northend "program" reflects the area).<br /><br />If you are worried about laws and policies so much, how about advocating the enforcement of state law?<br /><br />--reality checkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-3967391515898494132016-05-25T14:44:19.105-07:002016-05-25T14:44:19.105-07:00No one has claimed that the gen-ed classes at Thur...<i>No one has claimed that the gen-ed classes at Thurgood Marshall are deficient which would be a serious equity issue and the racial imbalances in the program exist whether we see the kids side by side or not. If you believe that HCC is inherently just segregation the proposed changes are not going to be satisfactory. Nothing will be until its dissolved. If you believe the program exists for solid academic reasons, then you're going to have to figure out how to justify it despite these issues and/or how to attack the core problems preventing greater minority participation in HCC.</i><br /><br />I agree. That is the issue right there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-25376477342012628832016-05-25T14:37:16.721-07:002016-05-25T14:37:16.721-07:00And it was as recently as October 2013 that the Li...And it was as recently as October 2013 that the Lincoln and TM PTAs worked on, and an AL task force approved, a set of guiding principles for APP, which included:<br /><br /><i>Provide self-contained classrooms for all core academic instruction in elementary and middle school, including Language Arts, Social Studies, and Science for APP-qualified students working approximately 2 grade levels ahead of same age peers. APP level math should be offered.</i><br /><br />I remember so many meetings, task forces, surveys, PTA events, etc to nail down these guiding principles, which are now apparently irrelevant...<br /><br />-an historianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-35845703680969525592016-05-25T14:25:59.573-07:002016-05-25T14:25:59.573-07:00HCC is not a "gifted" program. It does n...HCC is not a "gifted" program. It does not call itself<br />that and doesn't pretend to be one. It doesn't identify<br />using gifted rubrics or educate in a gifted model. Some<br />HCC students are gifted but many are not. It is for<br />academically "highly capable" period.<br /><br />--reality checkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com