tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post7559829001997959060..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: Declining challenge of APPAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-45624555218917485362014-05-02T10:24:32.427-07:002014-05-02T10:24:32.427-07:00As far as writing expectations, you can look at gr...As far as writing expectations, you can look at <i>grade level</i> writing exemplars from the CCSS:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.corestandards.org/assets/Appendix_C.pdf" rel="nofollow">CCSS Appendix C writing samples</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-39956407901638663352014-05-02T10:00:44.824-07:002014-05-02T10:00:44.824-07:00But then again, they don't read a whole lot, e...<i>But then again, they don't read a whole lot, either.</i><br /><br />This is a large part of the problem. Students do not have history texts to bring home and read, even for WA State history, which is a state graduation requirement with a standard text used by districts throughout WA. <br /><br />Postcards and letters do not allow for extended analysis (they are certainly easier to grade than extended essays). They could have done the same work in 5th grade. You should expect more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-81490926176505920132014-05-02T07:45:22.500-07:002014-05-02T07:45:22.500-07:00Yes, with geometry I believe it's a textbook i...Yes, with geometry I believe it's a textbook issue--and in our experience, things at the "end" of the curriculum either get covered too quickly or not at all due to time constraints.<br /><br />Re: analysis, yes, they can always just do it on their own, and when I think about it more, I guess they do actually do some--more of an "everyday" type of analysis, such as write a postcard to legislator or a letter to a corporation. But there hasn't been much in the way of literary analysis or writing anything longer than a couple pages. But then again, they don't read a whole lot, either. <br /><br />All in all, I'd have expected them to come out of MS with significantly more experience. But maybe this is typical, comparable to 10th grade LA elsewhere?<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-73244632620974438092014-05-02T07:08:45.066-07:002014-05-02T07:08:45.066-07:00If your child took Geometry at IHS, then they most...If your child took Geometry at IHS, then they most likely had proofs. Discovering Geometry texts, used at HIMS, leave formal proofs to the last chapter (if they even cover it), while the texts used at IHS are very proof based. <br /><br />As far as writing and analysis, my child thinks they don't do much because the teacher doesn't want to grade papers. Perhaps there is some truth to that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-35656076727132815712014-05-01T23:42:02.993-07:002014-05-01T23:42:02.993-07:00Imagine science classes that use math, even in mid... <i>Imagine science classes that use math, even in middle school. Or geometry that actually includes proofs! Or LA classes that require a lot of writing and analysis... </i><br /><br />My kids had all of that outside of APP (TOPS then either RHS or IHS pre IB.) Does APP really not offer any of that? Or are you saying you want proofs in 6th grade or something? (Actually, TOPS was better than RHS for analysis in LA -- but IHS is fine for that.) Don't APP kids just DO analysis when the opportunity offers (and then the teachers encourage it and refine their methods?) Or are you saying the teachers actively discourage it?<br /><br />Are they actually teaching 9th grade level Physical Science with <b>no</b> math? Don't they do some Stoichiometry? That requires algebra. Or are you wanting Physics with calculus for 7th grade? It's so hard to know whether these criticisms are real or are hyperbole.<br /><br />maureenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-44152464634210533952014-05-01T17:22:33.838-07:002014-05-01T17:22:33.838-07:00What? The kids don't do proofs in geometry? Wo...What? The kids don't do proofs in geometry? Wouldn't one need to use math in science for conversions, measurements, and data analysis?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-71036946942306184842014-05-01T16:55:25.323-07:002014-05-01T16:55:25.323-07:00Yes, there might have to be some effort on the par...Yes, there might have to be some effort on the part of the teacher to provide any key background information and motivate the kids to read whatever books they assign, as well as some work in figuring out how to guide discussions of the book, and work on grading any papers assigned in response to said book. Isn't that kind of what middle school teachers signed up for? I'm not seeing why that's an obstacle. <br /><br />Of course you don't just plunk them down with a book and say "read, discuss, analyze, and write a critique." You have to also teach, each step of the way. Unless I'm mistaken, that's the whole point!<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-6858102136125917042014-05-01T16:21:47.074-07:002014-05-01T16:21:47.074-07:00And here's the thing, whether you are talking ...<i>And here's the thing, whether you are talking about APP or not, somehow you have to get all 130 individuals to read that one book.</i><br /><br />Like the Odyssey? Or Shakespeare? This is what's been done in the past, in middle school APP, so why is it suddenly not possible?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-20933010995989395532014-05-01T13:48:20.852-07:002014-05-01T13:48:20.852-07:00We ran into that with the MS school non APP spawn....We ran into that with the MS school non APP spawn. A teacher suggested enrolling her in UW Saturday classes for teens. It was a great dilution and the child just needed to find other kids who don't mind weird dives into asking what life is about. That was the topic by the way. Sometimes, schools can't do it all. <br /><br />For the oldest spawn, writing is all about getting the assignment done however shoddy the work. When he can, my husband goes over the writing and makes suggestion to improve the work. A lot of it comes down to getting the kid to organize thoughts so it doesn't come out schizoid by learning how to introduce the topic, make transition, and conclude gracefully. It sounds easy, but writing is all about nuance and style and re-writing so I can see how a teacher grading 130 papers can't spend too much time on any one paper unless it's really bad. <br /><br />And here's the thing, whether you are talking about APP or not, somehow you have to get all 130 individuals to read that one book. There is no way you are going to please all the students and their parents. But you hope to engage the students especially if the book is challenging. That means preparing them and finding ways to connect 130 kids to one book. This takes time. So when people talk about wanting more reading, more depth and challenges, they need to consider how practical are the demands. You can't just plunk down Brave New World or Pride and Prejudice and say read, discuss, analyse, and write a critique answering these questions. <br /><br />I agree with what many here say about wanting more rigor and depth, but I temper my wants with what can be delivered practically. Perhaps we need to change LAs delivery in MS (7-8) like we do for math? <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-52340953871386195422014-05-01T12:11:46.894-07:002014-05-01T12:11:46.894-07:00It's something you missed completely on your l...<i>It's something you missed completely on your list: to actually learn something!...Imagine science classes that use math, even in middle school. Or geometry that actually includes proofs! Or LA classes that require a lot of writing and analysis... My kids would be thrilled.</i><br /><br />Spot on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-66041530383119713072014-05-01T11:55:50.468-07:002014-05-01T11:55:50.468-07:00Devil's Advocate,
Much of what you say about ...Devil's Advocate,<br /><br />Much of what you say about acceleration is true--AP credits might not transfer, and colleges do want to see well-roundedness in addition to academics. But in our experience, the goal of acceleration isn't to get a jump on college, or to help get into college. It's something you missed completely on your list: to actually learn something! <br /><br />Or perhaps you covered that, under the "general enrichment" category? Couching it that way certainly makes it sound like a bonus, and added benefit these students shouldn't just expect, right? And providing an example that's an elective helps make that case. But what if we're talking core classes? Say, for example, you've got a 6th grader in APP science. This highly gifted and always curious kid has already done a lot of reading on related topics, so finds the information presented in the course way too simplistic. So the kid--determined to actually learn something--does some extra reading at home. He/she goes back to school and tries to weave this new knowledge into the discussion, but gets shut down. "Sorry, that's beyond the scope of this class." Day after day after day, same story. <br /><br />Facing that sort of frustration, your reaction would probably be like that of my kid: "Well, if everything new and interesting is beyond the scope of this class, bring on the next freaking class!" But oh no, we have to stay on track. Don't want to get ahead of ourselves. After all, if you're working at the right level now, there might not be anything for you in 6 years! Better to be bored for the next 3, 4, 5 years, so you have options that last year, right? I disagree. Let the kids skip the boring, basic classes and push themselves if they already know the material and can handle it. If they run out of classes later, they'll have to figure something out then. And while it may not be the school's responsibility to provide college level classes, I think it SHOULD be the district's responsibility to at least accommodate the needs of students in that boat. For example, if a student has learned all that the school can provide in a core subject area, the school should allow the student to do independent study--on campus and with access to a computer lab or whatever they need--for continuing on that academic pathway.<br /><br />And as to your statement that "most commenters have said that more in-depth study should be reserved for those 'top-percenters,' I must have missed those comments. Folks may be advocating for more of it in some groups, but that doesn't mean they think others should be denied. Of course it would be great for all. But here's the thing: if you have slower learners, average learners and very quick learners, and they're all expected to cover generally the same topics throughout their K-12 education, those quick learners are going either need to move more quickly through the material (acceleration), cover the material more completely (depth), or some combination of the two. Or I suppose there's always a fourth option, which is to just suck it up and focus on non-academics, right? <br /><br />Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that investing in a curriculum with added depth in grade-appropriate subjects will benefit all--and I don't think any of those arguing for greater acceleration would argue AGAINST increased depth. I think it's just a reaction to the fact that the current curriculum (to the extent it exists) and instruction don't provide that depth, and there doesn't seem to be a great likelihood of that changing anytime soon. In the absence of a sufficiently rigorous curriculum, there's a push for acceleration. At least that way kids can keep learning something. But I'm all for a more rigorous curriculum. Imagine science classes that use math, even in middle school. Or geometry that actually includes proofs! Or LA classes that require a lot of writing and analysis... My kids would be thrilled.<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-50582407452780706402014-04-30T17:27:59.749-07:002014-04-30T17:27:59.749-07:00Anon at 1:35:
I'm going to call you Devil'...Anon at 1:35:<br /><br />I'm going to call you <b>Devil's Advocate.</b> I agree with much of what you said.<br /><br />The thing you missed is the cohort.<br /><br />I have APP qualified kids who we never enrolled in APP because their needs have (generally) been met outside of APP. Many people here will tell you that that would have not happened for their kids. I can't judge.<br /><br />Personally, I have never understood the attraction of "acceleration." Sure, if a kid is ready to move on, then they should be able to. But, as you point out, there are many levels on which to read Othello. (I'll admit that math could be different--but math is accelerated after 5th grade.)The thing APP enrollment seems to "buy" is the cohort to support and pull, or push, or at least not impede the operation of the qualified kid's mind and behavior.<br /><br />Some kids need that. Some don't. <br /><br />maureenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-43976582641730382992014-04-30T13:47:55.052-07:002014-04-30T13:47:55.052-07:00Students in my high school gifted program (years a...Students in my high school gifted program (years ago) who were beyond the math offered by the school took math classes at the local campus of our state university. Does that happen here with UW (for any subjects)? If not, why not? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-17626973383667855552014-04-30T13:35:27.972-07:002014-04-30T13:35:27.972-07:00Random thoughts of a devil's advocate nature: ...Random thoughts of a devil's advocate nature: <br /><br />So let's say acceleration is the goal. You get to high school, and acceleration means a few years ahead, so we're talking college courses. <br /><br />You have the option of AP courses to replace gen ed courses - but as others have mentioned, those credits don't universally transfer, and most of the more elite colleges want you to learn "their" way of doing things anyway. So if you're not looking to accelerate in order to earn college credit, let's examine why you might otherwise want to accelerate. <br /><br />To appeal to colleges? If we're talking about those same elite colleges, they're going to want much more than good test scores and a rigorous transcript - they look at extra-curriculars and the like as well. IF getting into a good college is the goal, the energy might be just as well spent learning to balance study with extra-curriculars and a social life, as even the best colleges are full of distractions. <br /><br />For general enrichment? At what point is that no longer the school's responsibility? If you've got a love for programming, at some point you surpass even the information taught by AP Comp Sci, at which you... what? Either pursue options at home or go to college early. After all, the school system can't really hire professors who are even equipped to teach college-level courses in all the varied fields. If you're not socially or emotionally ready for college, see the above discussion about the advantages of developing well-roundedness. And pursuing independent study is also a skill that will serve you well later in life. <br /><br />I guess the point I'm making is that at some point, many students will surpass the high school curriculum, no matter how rigorous is may be. The question we have to answer is, where is the line where that's a problem for the school system? <br /><br />This also brings up the issue of acceleration vs broad vs deep. I find it fascinating that most commenters have said that more in-depth study should be reserved for those "top-percenters." While I've outlined several reasons why more in-depth study might be preferable to acceleration for those most advanced students, my instinct is that it also better serves those students who are in the top tenth percentile as well. To put it simply, not every advanced sixth grader is ready for algebra I, but they're all ready to explore pre-algebra concepts in further depth (and having a firmer, more intuitive grasp might serve them better later). <br /><br />Acceleration is the simplest, most obvious way of saying "Look, we're providing services" but investing in a curriculum with added depth in grade-appropriate subjects will benefit all advanced learners, more easily allow it to be tailored to individuals, and better handle the issue of students who are transferring from private schools or out-of-district. To use another comparison, an eighth grader, an English major and a Lit professor can all read Othello and get something out of it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-17270026551884446952014-04-30T09:19:25.876-07:002014-04-30T09:19:25.876-07:00Argument redux: how to make APP a better college ...Argument redux: how to make APP a better college prep tool. Did anyone inform the teachers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-5808126155296312062014-04-29T11:03:20.822-07:002014-04-29T11:03:20.822-07:00Right... So if the point is to teach them how to w...Right... So if the point is to teach them how to write a basic college essay... Then the directions would not be discuss, but write an essay defining beat poetry by form, content and context, use examples from these.....fill in the blank... Poets known to work in the genre. How do these ... Fill in the blank....authors define beat poetry in their writings or essays? How would you define the genre and why? Give examples of poetry that does and does not fit the definition to support your definition. Outline with clear organizational structure due Friday. 5 to 10 pages rough draft due next week. Final draft 1 week after. Here are some selected readings to get you started... Cite all sources APA format..... Something like that.... Not discuss this simple poem.<br />This is APP middle school. They need to learn to write a college essay for high school AP classes.<br /><br />Anon. Anon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-952253972254674122014-04-28T22:37:37.379-07:002014-04-28T22:37:37.379-07:00Are they studying slam poetry? As part of class? W...Are they studying slam poetry? As part of class? What the?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-67531694808585666132014-04-28T20:57:59.691-07:002014-04-28T20:57:59.691-07:00A better slam poetry my kid found:
http://www.hu...A better slam poetry my kid found:<br /><br /><br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/what-kind-of-asian-are-you-slam-poem_n_5208102.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-73639885697046686702014-04-28T20:24:59.172-07:002014-04-28T20:24:59.172-07:00Reposting an update I recently had posted on the l...Reposting an update I recently had posted on the long open thread, as it's relevant to the discussion of decreased rigor, which school's to blame, etc.<br /><br />--<br /><br />I heard from Cindy Watters, and it sounds as if this MS APP social studies curriculum change was in the works for a while. This was apparently an effort to align the curriculum across the MS APP programs, although there was apparently no consideration given to how this would align--or not--with HS classes. If the idea was that everyone was switching to US History in 8th grade APP, it looks like it was only a matter of time before Garfield made this change re: AP World. And now the time is here.<br /><br />With the opening of a new APP middle school, alignment efforts certainly do make sense, but only if done (a) by adopting a good, rigorous shared curriculum; (c) by ensuring that teachers are well-trained in the new curriculum before implementation this fall; and (c) with an eye toward the post-MS pathway. Since they already blew it on "c" let's hope they can get it right on "a" and "b." Any thoughts on how to ensure that? I'll be relaying my feedback to Ms. Watters, for one. I'm also hoping to get the APP AC to take up the matter, but they don't seem particularly focused on advocacy..."<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-42029259664584992932014-04-28T20:13:34.603-07:002014-04-28T20:13:34.603-07:00Today's poetry jaunt to discuss rhyme:
My spe...Today's poetry jaunt to discuss rhyme:<br /><br /><i>My speech releases fire from the beast within. <br />I acknowledge it's a game; I justify my need to win.<br />You say there's no time to study, people look: <br />if you got time to take a [poop], then you got time to read a book.<br /><br />- Blue Scholars, “Southside Revival”</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-48227030004991380422014-04-28T17:27:59.865-07:002014-04-28T17:27:59.865-07:00@12:16, I am not really addressing advanced learni...@12:16, I am not really addressing advanced learning in particular as I think we can certainly challenge all learners here, including me. The ironic thing is in my work, the folks who have the most life's experience which are fodder for poets and angsty writers aren't your usual APP demographics. An observation these kids make themselves. They know what lucky ducks their lives are thus far. <br /><br />Of course we should challenge kids, but they are being honest in challenging me. That's fair. It does get me thinking and they have a point. Shakespeare wasn't writing because he though he was going to be #1 on the Oxford's greatest list. He wrote to get his plays up on stage, for his audience and patrons, and for his living. He wasn't THE most celebrated writer among his contemporaries then. That came much, much later. So if our kids wants to challenge relevance and greatness because they find just as much meaning and beauty in compelling contemporary novels and rap/emo lyrics, I think Shakespeare would applaud. In order to defend their points, the kids had to read Shakespearian works and know enough of English history to do so. I take their critical thinking power over knowing what a pentameter is any day.<br /><br />b<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-66366256882300736612014-04-28T16:25:59.634-07:002014-04-28T16:25:59.634-07:00No. The changes that we are seeing in the middle s...No. The changes that we are seeing in the middle school in the North, but not the south, seems to be keeping all kids from AP classes. It is unclear how far back into elementary the short comming in teaching rigor spreads. These issues should not be separated as they are not separate issues.<br />Anon AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-25910187277208373302014-04-28T14:19:01.642-07:002014-04-28T14:19:01.642-07:00There appear to be two things getting mixed here a...There appear to be two things getting mixed here and I wonder if it might be useful to separate them?<br /><br />At the elementary and middle school level, a lot of the discussion so far seems to be around the APP split (north/south) and consistency and quality problems from that, especially in the newer programs in the north, but generally across the entire district.<br /><br />At the high school level, a lot of the discussion is around access to college advanced placement credit (AP) classes (as there never has been much of a distinct APP program at the high school level) and whether that access has recently been restricted for earlier grades or even for all students at the school in general.<br /><br />Is that a fair summary of the two major areas of this discussion? And would it be helpful to separate those out (maybe into two separate threads)?Greg Lindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09216403000599463072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-26976802006522684822014-04-28T12:16:43.687-07:002014-04-28T12:16:43.687-07:00Why do adults feel so strongly we need to read the...<i>Why do adults feel so strongly we need to read the greatest lit, works that really are meant for adults or for people who understand more of life, of war, of hunger, of violation, of loss, of destruction, of love lost</i><br /><br />We're talking about a class for highly capable students, yes? The idea is to stretch their minds and expose them to the human experience through good literature. <br /><br />If materials are not well selected, however, it affronts students, rather than providing material for thoughtful discussion. That's exactly why materials need to be carefully selected. <br /><br />This isn't simply about contemporary vs classic. APP is supposed to be about offering an "advanced level of complexity and depth," while still being developmentally appropriate. Some material is too gritty or too simplistic - where's the happy medium?<br /><br />-one of many anonsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-11389045521776269812014-04-28T11:15:54.464-07:002014-04-28T11:15:54.464-07:00Perhaps. But then again it's context. I star...Perhaps. But then again it's context. I started asking this only after a recent conversation with my teen and friends. What they hear and say among each other tells me (whether it's old, middle, or modern English) they definitely don't use the word fornicator. They use something else. The words are out there and most kids are astute enough to know when to use them (bus rides, w/out parents) and not. (Then again, in this age group to say things in shocking ways is that age old foray into the daring and the forbidden. And if this is as far as it goes, as a parent, I can live with that compared to all the other skullduggery stuff they can get into.)<br /><br />The other point is Chaucer freely use the cants of his time to highlight his points and have a good time. He is a funny, raunchy dude with a purpose. Virgil's wild love, passion, and violence again can be read in his Aeneid as a reflection of his time.<br /><br />Can not the lyrics be used similarly? This is the question the kids asked me (paraphrasing their torrents here).<br /><br />Why do adults feel so strongly we need to read the greatest lit, works that really are meant for adults or for people who understand more of life, of war, of hunger, of violation, of loss, of destruction, of love lost (though on that note, they were ducking a bit)?<br /><br /> Mind you these kids understand what is expected and the linear thinkers can take it on and spit out what is expected in their classroom analysis. <br /><br />Still it's a good question. They can say all the right stuff. But does it really mean anything as the way the authors of those great works intended? And are we missing something by focusing only on that Oxford's list and not listen to the voices of today's gen? Perhaps by looking at both and looking beyond how things are being said, but the actual message, the passion, the emotion, the "Virgils" and "Chaucers" of the time are not so far apart.<br /><br />I think there's room.<br /><br />be...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com