tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post8506845763890240768..comments2024-02-28T22:24:07.299-08:00Comments on Community Forum for HCC (APP) in Seattle Schools: Some Washington M.S. UpdatesAndrew Siegelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06830585083467140758noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-90815402149750635682018-10-09T12:49:24.314-07:002018-10-09T12:49:24.314-07:00Discussion of class rank from the College Board:
...Discussion of class rank from the College Board:<br /><br />https://professionals.collegeboard.org/guidance/applications/rank<br /><br /><i>Some colleges that used to rely on class rank now use SAT® scores and GPA.<br /><br />Most large state universities, however, still require applicants to report class rank (as do many scholarship programs) and rely on it to help sort through the high volume of applications received. <br /><br />At large and small colleges alike, a student's grades in college-preparatory courses continue to be the most significant factor in the admission decision, followed by scores on standardized admission tests and grades in all courses.</i><br /><br />Absent class rank info, the College Board recommends counselors provide contextual info to colleges such as school range and median GPAs/SAT/ACT scores. What SPS high schools provide that info in their school profile (none?)? Competitive colleges will tell you they want to see high grades in challenging courses. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-27453335413630609112018-10-08T20:40:31.699-07:002018-10-08T20:40:31.699-07:00Not sure if they have stopped reporting class rank...Not sure if they have stopped reporting class rank, but they never reported any weighted GPA to colleges.The Transit Travellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745137455950396497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-59271514213922142052018-10-08T20:26:30.620-07:002018-10-08T20:26:30.620-07:00Board Policy 2420, High School Grade and Credit Ma...Board Policy 2420, High School Grade and Credit Marking Policy (Nov. 15, 2017):<br /><br /><i>The Superintendent or the Superintendent’s designee shall establish and post a Seattle School District Uniform Grading Scale, which details the corresponding percentage grade range for each of the eleven grade marks, with Honors courses receiving an additional .5 Quality Point and courses eligible to receive college credit from an accredited institution, such as Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate, College in the High School and Running Start courses receiving an additional 1.0 Quality Point.</i><br /><br />The K-12 Counseling Services Manual has typically detailed the weighted GPA and class rank info. Anyone have a link to this year's manual? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-6782302067135738512018-10-08T17:30:34.884-07:002018-10-08T17:30:34.884-07:00Would college admission offices prioritize GPA ove...Would college admission offices prioritize GPA over having taken honors courses? I am curious if having a lower GPA, due to having taken more honors classes, is viewed as more undesirable by college admission offices, than a higher GPA having taken a mix of core & honors. <br /><br />Anyone have any experience with college admission?<br /><br />I noticed the UW for example lists a high GPA (3.78) for average freshman admission. Would they take into account the student took more honors courses so their GPA is lower? Do they even care if you take honors classes?<br />CL Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-10123473092519645852018-10-08T17:14:34.115-07:002018-10-08T17:14:34.115-07:00I heard last year that SPS high schools are no lon...I heard last year that SPS high schools are no longer reporting weighted GPAs and class rank. Can anyone confirm that their child's high school is or is not providing this as information reported on college applications? A Roosevelt counselor stated it was not an option and suggested that this was an SPS decision, not a school decision, but it isn't clear where to find the current policy.<br /><br />RFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-58688505055041374852018-10-08T15:52:32.420-07:002018-10-08T15:52:32.420-07:001. I'm not sure you understand how the honors ...1. I'm not sure you understand how the honors GPA weighting works. A student's cumulative GPA reported on the transcript is completely unweighted. The honors weighting comes into effect when they calculate class rank. In doing so, they produce a weighted (but unreported) class rank GPA by adding 0.5 to the grade points earned in Honors classes and 1.0 to the GPs earned in AP classes, then take the average across the weighted grade points for all classes taken. This means that getting a bad grade in an honors class is actually better than getting a bad grade in a regular class, at least where class rank is concerned. Also, doesn't it make sense that the higher-performing students would get higher grades than the lower-performing students? One would assume that it is better for a student to get a B in a class where they are challenged than an A in a class where they don't do any work.<br /><br />2. The reading level in my English class was very low, but the texts we read in World History were more sophisticated. All students were expected to read the same materials. Practically no attempts at differentiation were made. That being said, I know for a fact that we read exactly the same texts as the previous ninth graders read in their non-HFA honors humanities classes. The problem as I see it is that they had low expectations for the ninth grade honors English classes even before HFA started.<br /><br />3. I asked one of the biggest proponents of HFA and he said that they are not releasing any data because they are afraid that parents will "pick it apart and draw all kinds of conclusions." Yes, they are cowards.<br /><br />4. When I said "the rigor of the class varied," I was referring to both English and history classes. There were teachers of both subjects that were harder or easier than others.<br /><br />I hope this helps. Feel free to ask any further questions.The Transit Travellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745137455950396497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-1758464475542745902018-10-03T10:57:14.126-07:002018-10-03T10:57:14.126-07:00@Transit Traveler Also, honors classes at multiple...@Transit Traveler Also, honors classes at multiple schools, including IHS, BHS, RHS, etc. are very variable as reported by parents of and HCC students at those schools. It is not just at Garfield. We have heard it (hopefully) gets more predictable at the IB & AP level. <br /><br />For example my child's LA class is not honors at all, and all students in the class are complaining. However the "regular" science class is really challenging, college level and is comparable in rigor his most challenging HCC class in middle school.<br /><br />HC parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-14254098477291779252018-10-03T09:08:11.452-07:002018-10-03T09:08:11.452-07:00@ Transit Traveller, thanks for sharing that. When...@ Transit Traveller, thanks for sharing that. When you say the "large range of student ability levels...was reflected in people's grades," do you mean that students of higher ability tended to get higher grades and people of lower ability tended to get lower grades? If so, it sounds as if lower ability--and/or less prepared--students were to some extent set up for failure or poor performance. If HFA classes are also more heavily weighted for GPAs (since they are "honors" classes), low grades can have an even greater negative impact on overall GPAs.<br /><br />How was the reading load handled? Principal Howard had stated that many Garfield students are at a very low reading level, but an HFA class should read materials at a high level. Were all students (except those with special ed accommodations) expected to read the course materials? Did everyone read the same materials? Was there as much reading as you'd expect in an honors class, or did it seem light?<br /><br />Rigor often depends on teacher. In this case, do you know if this was partly because the curriculum varied by teacher, or was there a standard set of readings and assignments across the different classes? <br /><br />If "many students were failing and could not catch up" as you said, that's a shame. Why are they not discontinuing an approach that dooms many students? It seems so unfair. Principal Howard originally promised an evaluation of the approach, but we have not seen anything. Have any data been shared with the school community, or is your statement based on personal observations in your class? If it's true that many are failing, no wonder they don't want to share the results. Are they truly <br /><br />Actually, I just noticed that you referred to "the rigor of the class." Weren't there two HFA classes--LA and SS? Which are you talking about above, and was your experience similar in the other?<br /><br />Thanks for any answers you can or will share!<br /><br />unclearAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-1705301585725408342018-10-02T20:04:20.630-07:002018-10-02T20:04:20.630-07:00I'm an HCC student at Garfield and I was part ...I'm an HCC student at Garfield and I was part of the first year of honors for all. I can confirm that the rigor of the class depended heavily on the teachers, but I can also say (at least for me) that our essays and projects were quite challenging and somewhat difficult to get a good grade on. Though there was a large range of student ability levels, it was reflected in people's grades.<br /><br />That being said, the hfa classes had serious flaws. Many students were failing and could not catch up to the rest of the class. They also lacked the special feeling of academic focus and competition that i had come to expect from my advanced classes in middle school. This "HCC culture" only resurfaced in my junior year AP classes, which are still quite segregated by ability level (as they should be).The Transit Travellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745137455950396497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-79446876963172279492018-09-19T11:28:25.492-07:002018-09-19T11:28:25.492-07:00@Unclear- I completely agree with you. At Garfield...@Unclear- I completely agree with you. At Garfield I would highly doubt that if there are kids reading at a 4th grade level combined with those already advanced the class could truly be honors. I think it is more inclined to work with smaller gaps between students in the same classroom. <br /><br />However, I understand the intended goal to get the different students to mix more and learn from each other at Garfield. I also think it is noble that Garfield wants so much to close their achievement gap. This is a nationwide issue everywhere with poverty a root cause and I am not certain it is obtainable given our SPS public school resources. Maybe if they shrinked class sizes down to 10! But as an HC parent, I also completely understand concerns about HC and other kids at grade level or above getting the education they deserve & need as well. <br /><br />A Parent Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-82800111588444723972018-09-19T10:46:47.396-07:002018-09-19T10:46:47.396-07:00Yes, Garfield said they were switching to HFA for ...Yes, Garfield said they were switching to HFA for both ELA and SS. HFA is different than a course with an honors option, as HFA means all are doing "honors-level" work. <br /><br />Yes, teachers vary. But also, students vary. Significantly. That's key.<br /><br />Garfield principal Ted Howard said in a Seattle Times article right before they implemented HFA (2 yrs ago now?) that they had students reading at the 4th grade level through those reading at the college level. It's hard to imagine how a student reading at the 4th grade level could suddenly handle ELA and SS classes taught at the high school honors level, without at least a couple years of intensive intervention to help prepare them. If Garfield has cracked the code, they should share the results with the world.<br /><br />unclearAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-85843482469637236842018-09-18T20:24:41.963-07:002018-09-18T20:24:41.963-07:00@Unclear Your understanding of "honors for al...@Unclear Your understanding of "honors for all" may be the case at Garfield or another school. I have no idea. Does Garfield also have "honors for all" 9th grade SS? <br /><br />At my student's school, students have 3 weeks to rescind honors option for a "core section". Apparently also the policies align across the various departmental subjects, Algebra, 9th LA etc. So theoretically it should be the same between teachers of the same subjects at this school. I also assume all the schools will tell you the same. As others have mentioned how honors is implemented varies depending on school etc. We all know also teachers vary.<br /><br />A Parent Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-54167946647723157622018-09-18T19:57:27.938-07:002018-09-18T19:57:27.938-07:00@unclear- I wonder if they could argue that as the...@unclear- I wonder if they could argue that as the class mentioned is two years ahead for the grade (9th/Algebra II) , the material is what is "accelerated". Same goes for Science. <br /><br />For my student's "honors for all LA", was told class moves at the "right pace" which is teacher determined. Don't know yet about SS honors which is a separate class than core. <br /><br />When IB or AP classes begin I wonder if the district could argue those classes move at an accelerated pace as compared to "core " or non IB/AP classes. <br /><br />In middle school there were (at least some) HC classes that also moved at a fast pace, I do remember one teacher describing how they covered same material in a few days for HC, versus 1-2 weeks for spectrum versus 2-3 weeks for general ed. <br /><br />A ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-35417291351537860592018-09-18T16:56:40.943-07:002018-09-18T16:56:40.943-07:00Thanks. @A Parent, if they are moving at the same ...Thanks. @A Parent, if they are moving at the same pace, that doesn't sound like the state-required "accelerated learning" for HC students. Also, your understanding of Honors for All classes seems to be different than mine, as I did not think students could opt for core credit instead of honors. I thought everyone automatically gets a transcript that reads "honors whatever," and I was concerned that in a school that is not predominantly high performing students like yours is, the set of teaching standards may not be as high.<br /><br />unclearAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-2715349996783226412018-09-18T16:25:52.704-07:002018-09-18T16:25:52.704-07:00P.S @Unclear- I agree your answers depends largely...P.S @Unclear- I agree your answers depends largely on the teacher and probably the school as well. I am sharing what we were told for our classes this year.<br /><br />The "honors for all" LA class teacher teaches to one set of standards---- all at the higher level. I described above the additional info above about options that exist (can opt to different core only section etc) for students who want core credit instead of honors. However, most students at this high school are high performing and choose honors credit. SS is self contained honors or self contained core at this high school. Algebra II honors and core are mixed and is described above. <br /><br />There is no apples to apples comparison across the board like others are telling you, it is largely teacher and I would add ALSO "student population dependent. At high schools where almost all students are above standard, the core classes can be very challenging. I have heard honors only classes at other high schools that are less challenging than some "core" classes at this high school. In fact, HC students we know stated they felt "core" chemistry & physics (which have no honors version at this school) are some of the most difficult and challenging classes. This is why they did not create an honors version we are told.<br /><br />A ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-3852134392787551692018-09-18T16:14:21.602-07:002018-09-18T16:14:21.602-07:00@just clarifying- Thank you for the details and in...@just clarifying- Thank you for the details and information. I actually was not assuming an equivalent in my example about a B earned in honors and A in core/gen ed, but I can see how you read it that way. I do understand they are weighted differently, thabnks for pointing out how they are weighted differently. <br /><br />@ Unclear- Here is some information I received from a teacher of both honors & non honors students in same class. This class kids can take for either honors or core credit. Here are the differences between Honors and Core credit:<br /><br />The tests are different (Honors are harder).“Core” students can retake a test where Honors cannot. They have to know the material well by the day they test on it. Some homework has a challenge problem or 2 that are required for honors students and not required for core. Honors students have extra projects, 2 extra per semester.They are moving at the same pace.<br /><br />A Parent<br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-59792785420942586032018-09-18T15:46:54.592-07:002018-09-18T15:46:54.592-07:00@unclear, our experience has been that once again,...@unclear, our experience has been that once again, it depends on the teacher. One mixed GE/honors course was the GE class with added work outside of class (not necessarily more advanced, just additional time consuming projects). Another honors course was like a repeat of middle school, despite being labeled honors, and others have really and truly been honors level work. And grading? Also teacher specific.<br /><br />I'd add a 3rd "type" of honors course - it's simply called honors and students opt in, but there is still a non honors course option. All students in the class have the honors designation on their grade report, and all are expected to meet the honors level expectations (however those may be defined by the teacher).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-48813033834038078972018-09-18T13:23:50.510-07:002018-09-18T13:23:50.510-07:00I'm not so much asking about the weighting and...I'm not so much asking about the weighting and transcripts, but more about the teaching and grading in the two different types of honors classes.<br /><br />1. In an Honors for All type class, where everyone gets the Honors designation, (A) is the class really taught at an honors level, sufficiently challenging to both GE and HC students; and (B) does the same grading scale apply to all, since the same honors distinction applies to all?<br /><br />2. In a class in which you can opt for either GE or Honors credit, is the "extra" work required for the "honors" designation actually harder, or is it just a greater quantity of GE work? Do students working toward the Honors designation have to spend their days in what is essentially a GE level class, just doing honors-level work on the side?<br /><br />(still) unclearAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-17970692492478464422018-09-18T09:48:59.956-07:002018-09-18T09:48:59.956-07:00So much depends on the teacher. IB and AP courses ...So much depends on the teacher. IB and AP courses are supposed to cover a standardized curriculum, but the level of coverage and challenge still depend greatly on how the class is taught. Students can walk out of the exams feeling amply prepared, shell shocked by the lack of preparation, or somewhere in between. <br /><br />@A Parent, I assume you were suggesting a "B" in an honors class is considered the same as an "A" in a non honors course, when you are considering the weighted GPA used for class rank calculations. That's close, but not quite right. <br /><br />In high school, an honors course gets a 0.5 weighting and AP and IB courses get a 1.0 weighting. SPS only reports unweighted GPA, however, and weighted GPA upon request (for college apps). On the grade report, a "B" is still a 3.0, whether honors, AP, or IB. A "B" would be weighted as a 3.0 in a non-honors course, 3.5 in an honors course, and 4.0 in an AP or IB course. An "A" in an honors course is a 4.5, weighted.<br /><br />just clarifyingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-55230420988480835392018-09-18T09:01:14.635-07:002018-09-18T09:01:14.635-07:00@Unclear
Yes, that's what I was told. The hon...@Unclear<br /><br />Yes, that's what I was told. The honors classes teach to the "highest level (exceeding) of the listed standard" for the class. However, I was also told that some teachers also teach all their classes (ex 10th and 11th general classes as well) to this same higher standard. It is confusing! I don't know if extra help is given during this class. We are new to high school this year and I am also trying to find out more information. <br /><br />You also asked " or the "do more for honors in the same class" version of honors, in your experience does the harder grading scale require more challenging work, or is just a harder grading scale for the same work--just tighter ranges for an A, etc.? The "no retakes" rule is a more curious one to me, since if a student is doing harder work why shouldn't they be eligible for retakes if someone doing lower level work is? "<br /><br />We don't know yet as I mentioned are new to high school. I don't know yet if the class will require more challenging assignments or just extra assignments plus harder grading scale and no makeup test rule. <br /><br />The difference is also reflected on the transcript so for example x student taking honors version gets a B and honors credit and another student taking general version gets an A and general ed credit. I am told honors credit increases class rank, but not GPA.<br /><br />If I find out more will list it here, but as I mentioned was also told this all varies greatly between high schools! No matter where you send your kid to high school until they get to take IB and AP courses I think it is all variable and not standardized. <br /><br />However, I would assume also if your high school also has vast disparities (such as more FRL who may be below standard combined with HCC generally more affluent) between students in the same class this would play out in practice to be more challenging. In our high school majority of kids are middle class and at or above standard HC or not. <br /><br />A Parent Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-71981334765547118662018-09-17T22:16:36.660-07:002018-09-17T22:16:36.660-07:00please update anyone.. please update anyone.. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-50484634688482286822018-09-17T21:23:14.659-07:002018-09-17T21:23:14.659-07:00Any new info or updates?Any new info or updates?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-82632524422418144602018-09-17T19:41:35.495-07:002018-09-17T19:41:35.495-07:00Gawd, STILL yakking. This is how SPS does mttg mgm...Gawd, STILL yakking. This is how SPS does mttg mgmt when it's inconvenient to hear fro families.<br /><br /><br />MPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-40417567770507850902018-09-17T19:28:06.066-07:002018-09-17T19:28:06.066-07:00Well, the wms principal is spending the first 30mi...Well, the wms principal is spending the first 30mins talking about herself and trying to do damage control kind off. Defensive. Enough w the PowerPoints !<br /><br />Audience memberAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4649338642905686469.post-58646448587910832212018-09-17T17:29:37.411-07:002018-09-17T17:29:37.411-07:00@ a parent, so you're saying in the "Hono...@ a parent, so you're saying in the "Honors for All" classes the grading standards are the same for all, it's just that those who might need more help to be at the honors level get that extra help? Is that extra help in class, or ? (If it's in class, does that interfere with the ability to teach to the honors level?)<br /><br />For the "do more for honors in the same class" version of honors, in your experience does the harder grading scale require more challenging work, or is just a harder grading scale for the same work--just tighter ranges for an A, etc.? The "no retakes" rule is a more curious one to me, since if a student is doing harder work why shouldn't they be eligible for retakes if someone doing lower level work is? Presumably both situations would allow for increased learning, right? When honors classes are completely distinct from their non-honors version, is there typically that same sort of difference in the approach to retakes? <br /><br />unclear<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com