They are talking about slicing and dicing the SAME APP kids, again.
They are proposing pulling off general ed kids and pushing them into the Lincoln building, when, those kids' buildings are still opening and going (not sure why), and then making it one really big school. Not necessary, will be very disruptive to families going to numerous other general ed schools (what about their general ed siblings?), and, will be hard to administer for PLC teams.
They are talking about slicing and dicing middle school APP north kids. Sending them off to John Marshall building, (at least keeping them together), but then pulling off and diverting other kids who would have gone to Whitman MS (Northgate ES and Broadview Thomson students), sticking them to the Marshall building for the role up.
If there is no building for Lincoln APP to go to for the time being, and, no body else wants to be diverted to a yet another temporary holding site, then, why not leave all APP at Lincoln, and roll up there? The big take away is that our kids WILL NOT GET A comprehensive middle school experience, thus, instead of being sliced and diced, better to stay together and have a single principal who is focused on the pedagogy relevant to these students. There will be so much chaos, (not just for this group, but every one else too), lessening the pain and rationalizing the plan to be education-effective (as well as socially and emotionally compassionate) as well as cost effective (same buses)ought to be maximized.
Seriously, it is understandable that there is no middle school space north of the ship canal for the time being, (Jane Addams co locates the K8 and the middle school -- so it is full up), so, if we can't get a middle school, then we should consider the pros/cons between being isolated for grade 6 alone in a WP roll up in Marshall, vs., staying at Lincoln as a temporary 1-6, then, 1-7, then, 1-8 until Jane Addams, Wilson Pacific are ready.
My kids will be nomads, tribeless nomands. We will work hard to make it work, but, some consideration from the District for these kids is only fair. There is a better solution than what they are planning.
Lincoln, 1-5 now, 1-6 next year, 1-7 next, 1-8 finally, then, it busts apart to go to the elementary campus (or campuses) and the middle school campus (or campuses). No, not ideal, but, consider the alternatives. Its the life boat to get through this storm, getting through it together, with our teachers and administration focusing on teaching these students. That's as good as it gets.
It's not just Lincon kids to consider though. There's also a significant group of kids who enter APP at middle school, and these are often kids who didn't want to be at an APP only school. It would be extremely awkward to "start" Lincoln in 6th grade. I'm not saying that option isn't worth considering, but that there may be some different perspectives.
If they are already APP-eligible but have chosen not to come into the program, chances are that although they are fully qualified, socially and emotionally, they do not have a *desperate* need for it. As such, they will consider their choices, and, rather than come to a *desolate* 6th grade roll up in an interim site, which has no grass or turf fields, or track, and, has no known principal, no jazz or orchestra band, or even a PTA, and, they would be a small part of a co-housed single grade roll up, they are NOT coming.
Remember, these same kids have a dual choice, they can stay and go to Eckstein (which is where the majority come from) or Hamilton with the rest of their K5 friends. Both are fantastic, stable, great buildings with great principals and music programs established. Both are stable, although overcrowded. As such, this WP roll up plan would not relieve pressure from Eckstein or Hamilton, because those kids simply wouldn't come.
Change the offerings, (pick between Eckstein or Hamilton APP - to - pick between Ecksein or roll up isolated grade 6), and the choice that families will make clearly will change too. No more opting in. And, that would boomerang back on the rest of the entire learning communities back in Hamilton and Eckstein, as the entire buildings would continue to get more and even more overcrowded. It would even push down into the K5s, as wary parents seeing the path ahead would not move their kids out of Loyal Heights, West Woodlands, Bryant, etc. And, those schools NEED to export kids too. Desperately.
I agree that we need to think about everybody. And, to attract those not-yet-opted-in or newly qualified 6th grade APP students (which would help relieve the 3 existing middle schools), the interim 4 year housing plan needs to be made (1) PALATABLE (rather would DESIRABLE, but, let's not talk unicorns here), as strong of a choice as possible, education-wise and community-wise, and, (2) STABLE, as stable as a nomad, homeless/buildingless community can be.
Staying at Lincoln will engender stability, consistency, and clarity. The educators, already experienced with these learners, will continue to provide for their well-understood needs. Perhaps they could walk to Hamilton for zero period for instrumental music... But, that can't happen if they are pushed out to the Marshall property.
This is not my first choice, Hamilton as-is is my first choice, but, that is off the table, so let's salvage this as best we can for the next 4 or 5 years.
Look at the difficulties that North APP MS went through and be very careful what you wish for. The blog seems to be dominated by North-centric discussion because it has not been an easy split. The music program had to be created from scratch. It took THREE YEARS of constant parent lobbying and waiting for the numbers to grow before higher math kids were served. Program fidelity and rigor has been difficult to maintain (props to those teachers from WMS and HIMS who continue to meet and plan together when possible).
There may be a fair number of non-enrolled APP eligible kids in West Seattle for a small founder population, but once the new Meany MS is open, there will be room at Washington for all South APP kids. As it is none are turned away. Teachers who taught all APP pre-split now have APP only part of the day. If I were you, I would work to keep the program as is or risk diluting and losing the program integrity at both South MS sites. It may be less geographically convenient, but the bigger numbers make for a stronger program and a less insular social cohort.
I agree - there are not enough APP kids in West Seattle to make up a viable 1-5 or 6-8 program. We don't even know who the Fairmount Park principal will be - or how they will feel about APP students. Didn't Madison avoid having a Spectrum Program as long as possible?
They would have to bus APP kids into West Seattle for this to be attractive to me.
Sidney -- I disagree. Many West Seattle parents have asked for an APP elementary and middle school option. Now they have a choice -- stay with a small cohort in west Seattle or join a larger cohort at TM and Washington. Or stay in west Seattle for elementary, then go to Washington for middle. TM is already busting at the seams and growing. TM has a full school with 2 portables. There are 4 APP 5th grade classrooms. Washington has a huge APP cohort and can afford to lose some students who choose to stay in west Seattle until high school. Let those families make the choice. It will relieve pressure from TM and allow TM to keep its autism program and not get overcrowded. What is your solution for keeping TM from busting at the seams? -- Thurgood Marshall Veteran
You miss my point. I am aware that some WS parents have asked to have kids served in West Seattle at middle school. Is it really that much farther from West Seattle to WMS than from North Beach to Hamilton? It's not like you're on the Olympic peninsula. I also said nothing about elementaries. And there are plenty of elementaries with many more portables than TM has on a lot less real estate.
I was pointing out that West Seattle should take the Hamilton experience as a cautionary tale. The WMS APP teachers are rightly concerned about program viability if West Seattle kids are siphoned off. Already they no longer teach a full day of APP. There is room to grow when Meany opens. A smaller cohort endangers the ability to offer high math and high music. There is also no plan or guarantee of faithful implementation of the program. Many promises were made before the last split about training, supplies, access to math, etc.
I'll say it again: be careful what you wish for. Things are very good at WMS APP.
Sidney - Perhaps I misunderstood your discussion to be about both elementary and middle school, but this is about future planning for both. TM does not have alot of "real estate" for portable placement because portables can't be placed on the I-90 lid, limiting options. More important, the elementary school is approaching 500 kids fast. The cafeteria is busting at the seems and TM is already over capacity and growing. The pipeline feeding Washington is only growing. Giving West Seattle families an APP choice for elementary and middle relieves capacity pressure and addresses parent desires to stay in the west seattle community. The APP cohort at Washington will be big enough without some west seattle kids. - TM veteran
I would hold off on implementing a solution for something that isn't actually a problem.
Placing any slice of north end APP in a neighborhood school is nuts. There's not enough capacity in the north end, and putting two populations with guaranteed assignment in the same building will only create problems. Placing north end APP in Wilson Pacific will help provide stability to every kid in the north end. I don't think it's the ideal solution, but under the circumstances (too many kids, not enough inventory, steadily growing enrollment), it's the best option for.
As a WS APP family and veteran of the Lowell split, I completely agree with Sidney's and Meg's opinions and concerns. Even with a great Principal at TM and many veteran teachers from Lowell, the post-split quality and experience was not as good. Without question the program is not the same rigor and quality as it once was, and lost many veteran teachers from the program due to the splits, and all the extra effort it took to try to return the program to a solid footing. APP is a complex program, not a brand, nor a label, nor simply "2 years ahead." It will take years to build a high quality APP program from scratch, and by then, there likely won't be room at Madison to host it, without serious overcrowding like that currently at HIMS. My apologies to my WS friends and neighbors, but Sidney and Meg's sage warnings should be heeded and as they say, there will be plenty of room at WMS after Meany comes back online. Washington's diversity is also second to none, and an incredibly valuable part of the APP middle school experience.
It feels like Hamilton is just reaching a more stable APP program, several years after the first split. There is now a more advanced math pathway (after years of students being denied what was promised with the split), there is greater effort to align the content of APP classes, and the principal has hired some strong new teachers. The wheel will have to be reinvented yet again with new schools, new teachers, and new principals.
Have to agree with anon @8:14. HMIS is really coming into their own. Having just attended curriculum night it is clear, at least from the teachers I saw, that there is a great deal of awareness between the WMS and HIMS curriculum differences and similarities and clear efforts to align them. The district should be careful (ha!) about messing with the program the teachers and principal have built there.
I agree that setting up a new program is non-trivial. However, none of these concerns are unique to APP. I'm sure parents in the Eckstein reference area that are getting moved into JAMS or WP are thinking variants of the same thoughts. We need the new capacity as a district and a large group of students by necessity have to be the first cohort in these new facilities. It seems like this time around there is an opportunity to engage a bit earlier and work on making the transition easier.
Starting one right sized program in a neighborhood based building is worlds apart from what the district is asking of app- two too small programs without something like a neighborhood or an option program, tying them as groups, and of course at both places app can expect to be kicked out fairly quickly as usual. The neighborhood programs are getting stability, which is a pretty great thing. I think the app community could do well starting a new program if, say, it were moved entirely to Wilson pacific.
I am sure you feel you have experience since you helped with the start of a k-8, but this is not the same.
It would be really helpful if posters wrote out the names of schools, rather than "JA" "HIMS" "WMS" etc. We all know the schools in our own area, but for us newer parents it's hard to figure out what schools people are talking about. Thanks for considering!
I have a question for Garfield families (if you are listening). I have an APP-qualified 5th grader, whom we have kept at our neighborhood (spectrum) elementary school. Our plan was to move to APP (Hamilton) for middle school next fall, but we are not excited about either of the options on the table now (John Marshall for 2 years, or cram into JAMS alongside Jane Addams K-8 with something like 20+ portables).
Here's my question . . . I know that if we don't enroll in APP in 6th grade, we are pretty much walking away from the opportunity for our child to attend Garfield HS, and I'm wondering what we will be missing. I don't know much about Garfield; I hear it's amazing, but can you tell me why? Is it that much better than the neighborhood high schools (e.g., Roosevelt) and if so, in what ways?
This is a completely sincere question -- I really have no idea what makes Garfield so great, but I would love it if someone could tell me so that my decision about APP middle school is an educated one. Thank you!
I can't speak to Garfield offerings, but barring any pathway changes, Garfield could still be an option if your child tested in as a 6th or 7th grader (for 7th or 8th grade APP). Not ideal, but it's something to consider.
We enrolled our daughter to the APP program at WMS at 8th grade, just a year before high school. She is now a junior at Garfield and she is completely fine in terms of her preparation. Garfield has lots of AP offerings (including AP Calculus BC, the class only offered there and at Roosevelt) and a lot of smart kids (=nice learning environment). We are satisfied with our choice.
I hope someone who knows Roosevelt well will chime in. Until then, from looking at their course catalogue, there seems to be an emphasis on everyone getting the same opportunities for rigorous classes. For example, all freshman take the same English and History classes. In the 10th grade, your student can choose to do more work in English and get credit for an honors class - but it is not a separate class. All students take AP Human Geography in the 10th grade. So - in these early years at least, there is no way to choose a class that works at your pace.
I think this comes from being a neighborhood school. They aren't set up to serve APP students. I'm sure there are lots of wonderful things about Roosevelt, and many APP students have had a great time there. My kids would be unhappy in this situation. If yours joined APP because they were unhappy in a general ed program, I'd take that into account.
Thank Lynn, If you have a child at Garfield, can you explain how it differs from your understanding of Roosevelt? Is there an actual APP track? (I have heard there really is no APP track in HS - just honors classes.) If APP students are completing requirements sooner, then are there more electives at Garfield? Are some of the electives geared specifically toward APP learners?
Lynn, I think the same is true at Garfield--from what I can tell from the catalog, everyone takes the same English in 9th and 10th grades. There's an option to do extra work for an honors designation, but the classes themselves are inclusive. I'm curious to hear how that worked out for APP kids--whether they felt the class moved too slowly, whether they were challenged, etc.
LA9 Honors was left out of the Garfield catalog last spring, but it exists and the counselors knew about the omission and got kids signed up.
Honors and AP classes are opt-in, so you don't have to have come from APP to take them, which is nice for adding in some fresh faces to the mix. This is different from IBX at Ingraham which is more self-contained.
APP 9th graders go right into AP World at GHS, because the breadth and rigor of the middle school APP social studies prepares them for it, but they are not given that option at RHS.
Some high school classes require a prerequisite, so the famous GHS-UW Marine Bio class has freshmen who took biology at MS as well as sophomores who took bio in 9th. RHS has all 9th graders take the same physical science - the book the APP kids did in 7th grade. Math and music and foreign languages are all based on prior experience, of course, so although there is no APP track per se, there are enough kids who need the high level classes for the school to offer them. This is why the concentrated cohort is important (and tangentially, why South middle school APP should fight to avoid a split). This concentration and can also benefit kids who were not in APP by providing access to the higher class offerings if they opt in.
Garfield has more AP math and science choices than Roosevelt, so you won't run out of classes in your senior year, which looks very good to colleges. This was a concern for parents of the founding class of IBX who are now juniors. They were supposed to get community internships when they ran out of IB coursework, and I'm hoping that commitment is coming through for them next year. Can someone from IHS update us?
Roosevelt's music and foreign language are as strong as Garfield's, its drama is much stronger. It depends on what your kid wants.
Roosevelt is a very good neighborhood school with some very strong students but it's not set up for AL.
There are separate honors English classes in 9th and 10th grades. (There was an error in the catalogue and registration forms this yeat - 9th grade honors english was omitted. It was mentioned at registration though.) There are no separate APP classes. In subjects where they've been accelerated, APP students will have older students in their classes. It's been a good mix so far. My child has taken art electives where other students have been placed because it was the only thing that fit in their schedule. I heard complaints about obnoxious behavior in those classes. Still, the teachers were great, and the next level of those classes will be full of students who want to be there.
The teachers have been excellent - enthusiastic and helpful. Ted Howard does a great job. 1,600 students with five minute passing periods and one half hour lunch period - and I haven't heard any complaints. We're very happy.
I know Spanish has been a problem at Garfield this year due to a lack of teachers. Some freshman were bumped by older students and put in electives instead. Is this a problem in other areas too?
My daughter (10th grade) at Garfield, loves it. She thinks going there was the best decision of her life. She likes the feel of the school, the spirit. She actually spent one month at Ingraham waiting for the wait list to move last year, and enjoyed Ingraham a lot too. I just asked her if she wished she had stayed at Ingraham and she said no. She is really into music, so that was the reason she transferred. But now she likes the feel of the school and the community. NEMom
I'm tired of all of the uncertainty and unappealing options. We live in the Hamilton boundary, and we will pull our kids (who are currently in 3rd and 5th grades) out of APP and send them to Hamilton instead, when the time comes for them to go to middle school. We will NOT keep them at Lincoln for 6th grade nor will we send them to John Marshall or Wilson Pacific. I've talked to other parents who feel the same way as us as well.
I completely understand the frustration of the elementary and middle school families - the amount of changes that the program has experienced in the last few years is completely ridiculous - and it is so frustrating that the district was told this would all happen when the train left the station a few years ago, yet they decided to completely ignore reason.
However - I would think very carefully about pulling your kids out of the program before high school, as it can severely limit your options. We have our kids in the APP program in order to keep them engaged, so I would question whether or not a middle school Spectrum program is going to do the job.
Also, your child will be limited in high school with class selection, which can determine whether they stay engaged through the upper level courses.
Engagement in school is extremely important for all kids, particularly during high school when other social pressures are competing for their time and attention.
You chose APP for your child for a reason, and that reason isn't going to go away because you are angry with the delivery model. There are many gifted programs across the U.S that operate on a much smaller scale than the APP program, and are very successful at meeting the kids needs.
If I were you (and granted - I'm not as my kids are already in high school) - I would absolutely grin and bear it now for the future payoff.
Its kind of like what we all teach our kids -decisions now will greatly affect your future - so try and make a good one even if it might be uncomfortable for the time being.
Good luck with the decision - I am crossing my fingers for all of you and your kids!
I have no problem with sending my child to Wilson Pacific for APP middle school. However, I am totally against peeling off APP 6th graders and then putting them into John Marshall while waiting for W-P to come online. I'm going to lobby for middle school kids to be at Lincoln during the interim period so they can access Hamilton music, sports, etc. Failing that, I would look at sending my kid to Hamilton (we would now be in the boundaries) and then transferring him to W-P when it opens.
Reposting from the SSS blog...can we please rally against this terrible OlyHills idea?
FYI FACMAC has completely argued against putting APP in Olympic Hills b/c there's no space to bring kids in from outside the area, there are so many kids - and that should be a neighborhood school. LOTS of pushback against the district on that decision. It was not FACMAC and not APP - it was all Teaching and Learning's Michael Tolley at the last minute pushing that Oly Hills APP bad idea, b/c he wants to divide up APP and stick it as far at the edge of the city as possible - the SPS plan involved busing kids from Laurelhurst up to Oly Hills! Michael Tolley doesn't care to try to understand capacity and won't listen to the experts who do. Please direct all program placement anger, whether it's over APP placement, option schools issues, or SpEd placement (PLEASE put the N-NE group of SpEd into the fully ADA compliant new Oly Hills building rather than a retrofitted old one! They're a way better fit than busing in APP!) But that's not where the district is proposing on the SpEd slides. Look at those. Get on the district and Michael Tolley's case - but APP is not the bad guy in this one. They really want to stay out of neighborhood schools b/c they've been burned that route too many times. Signed, Whaaaat Plan?
There has been a lot of focus on the middle school mess in the North End, and rightly so, because it is a godawful mess. But I would like to hear what Washington Middle School parents think WMS will be like once Meany reopens. It seems like currently WMS has a vibrant Spectrum program and there is good synergy between Spectrum and APP at the school. But a lot of those Spectrum kids are from McGilvra, Stevens, and Montlake, and they will be at Meany in the future. Won't WMS be losing a lot when those kids are at Meany? Or will APP not be affected that much by their absence?
I recognize that Spectrum will be a good thing for Meany, so I'm not saying it's a bad plan. Just wondering about the collateral effects.
The district still has not decided whether or not current 6th and 7th grade APP students will be grandfathered at Hamilton. Pulling all APP out of HIMS as of next year, and splitting them between JAMS and Wilson Pacific (housed at an interim site) is still on the table for 2014.
If grandfathering is important to your family, you need to submit your comment and get counted.
Community comments included: "No APP at Olympic Hills or JAMS, it takes up neighborhood seats" [applause] I didn't know whether it was a comment from someone not liking APP, or someone just not wanting APP to be split and moved to Olympic Hills/JAMS. Of course some of those APP kids are neighborhood kids as well...
Another random tidbit - They plan on placing a football field at the Wilson Pacific site for use by the future Lincoln High School (for practice only).
RE: the statement that no decision has yet been made re: whether current HIMS APP students will be grandfathered in:
According to p.39 of the draft plan slideshow, the option that has the greatest numbers heading to John Marshall next year is Option 1, which transitions "all" north end middle school APP students from Hamilton. According to the number presented in that proposal, however, it would seem that grandfathering is in fact presumed. Otherwise the numbers just don't add up. I believe there are in the neighborhood of 200 APP kids per grade at HIMS this year, and that's not likely to decrease next year. Since the new Wilson-Pacific 6th graders are also slated to be at John Marshall next year, and the projected enrollment is 380, it seems like Option 1 is referring to 6th graders only, not "all" north end APP kids. When the slideshow talks of "transitioning" all NE APP to John Marshall, they must mean roll-up (otherwise it's not really a transition, it's just a switch).
So why are they saying this decision hasn't been made? I guess it's possible they (a) don't fully understand their own proposal; (b) are reconsidering the option to move all--in which case I hope they're also planning for big changes in projections for how much of John Marshall they'll need to use, and how much excess capacity they'll end up with at HIMS; or (3) they are trying to appease some parents by making it seem like 6th graders won't be all alone at JM, when they actually have no intention of moving all of APP over.
HIMSmom - The draft proposal is just that, a draft. The final plan presented to the Board may vary from the presentation as staff is still discussing alternatives. Just as students may not be grandfathered at HIMS, JAK-8 may not stay at Jane Addams.
The point is that feedback is being tabulated. If there are parts of the proposal that you support, such as grandfathering, then that needs to be submitted as comment. If there are parts of the proposal you don't support, such as splitting the elementary cohort, then submit comment.
The district wants the test scores of APP kids spread around to mask the scores of low-scoring schools.
What if the test scores of APP kids were linked to their NSAP school? Then there would be no one school with crazy high test scores that everyone loves to hate. There would be no strong disincentive (as there is now) for nominating potentially eligible kids from underrepresented groups. Principals wouldn't fear losing that top 2%.
MAP testing for fall starts September 30th. Unless you need it for Algebra placement, just say no until the district stops shuffling the kids around to satisfy their political agenda.
I have a question about Thurgood Marshall. I assume the new vice principal is being prepared to take over when Julie eventually retires. This concerns me because she was the principal at Lawton who dismantled their Spectrum program. (Conveniently omitted from the work history she shared in the school newsletter.) Is there a current TM parent who can tell me if she seems like a good fit for the school? We were planning to enroll a child there next year.
Lynn -- Your assumption does not jibe with District policy or TM's history. 2 years ago TM reached the population size warranting a vice principal. Instead of a Vice Principal, the District allowed Julie B. to hire a "Head Teacher" (Toni B.), who functioned much like a Vice Principal. TM was permitted to use the extra staffing money saved on other staffing needs. Last spring the District changed its staffing standards and TM was required to hire a Vice Principal instead of a head teacher. Hence, the hiring of this year's Vice Principal. The District does not usually hire Vice Principals as trainees for Principal positions in the same school. It is just as likely that the current Vice Principal will fill an open Principal position elsewhere before Julie B. retires, or that another person with more seniority, etc. would be named as Principal upon Julie B's retirement if and when that happens. I would avoid making placement decisions for your child based on pure speculation and rumor about district staffing decisions that can change on a dime. Do you have any factual basis for your speculation? --TM veteran
I think reopening Meany will be good for WMS and Central kids in general. There will still be a Spectrum program at WMS (and all middle schools, I believe), and while the Spectrum program may be a smaller piece of the school, the APP program will be proportionally larger (since the total number of students will be smaller). I think there will continue to be a good diversity of kids, but without the overcrowding.
My only caveat is that if the district splits the APP kids, Washington may lose the critical mass required to offer higher math and to sustain the excellent music and other programs which benefit all the Washington kids.
The District is not planning to "split" the kids along the model of the Washington/HIMS split of 5 years ago. Rather, the West Seattle kids will have a choice of staying in West Seattle or going to Washinton. The bulk of APP South kids will go to Washington and that group won't be too small. The numbers suggest a continued robust APP cohort at Washington. Consider that the current 5th grade APP class at TM is almost double the size (4 APP classes) as the current Washington 8th grade cohort (2 classes) when they were at TM. Even if a chunk of kids leaves for West Seattle, APP grows in middle school and the Washington classes in the pipeline are bigger than those that preceded them. If antsy thing, the question is whether the West Seattle cohort will be big enough to thrive in West Seattle. It is nice those West Seattle families will be given a choice (between bad commute and small cohort). -- APP parent
To say Ms. Helm "dismantled" Spectrum is a mischaracterization. She actually allowed self-contained to continue for its second and final year at Lawton. During that year she oversaw the turmoil and meetings and the committee that discussed Spectrum.
49 comments:
They are talking about slicing and dicing the SAME APP kids, again.
They are proposing pulling off general ed kids and pushing them into the Lincoln building, when, those kids' buildings are still opening and going (not sure why), and then making it one really big school. Not necessary, will be very disruptive to families going to numerous other general ed schools (what about their general ed siblings?), and, will be hard to administer for PLC teams.
They are talking about slicing and dicing middle school APP north kids. Sending them off to John Marshall building, (at least keeping them together), but then pulling off and diverting other kids who would have gone to Whitman MS (Northgate ES and Broadview Thomson students), sticking them to the Marshall building for the role up.
If there is no building for Lincoln APP to go to for the time being, and, no body else wants to be diverted to a yet another temporary holding site, then, why not leave all APP at Lincoln, and roll up there? The big take away is that our kids WILL NOT GET A comprehensive middle school experience, thus, instead of being sliced and diced, better to stay together and have a single principal who is focused on the pedagogy relevant to these students. There will be so much chaos, (not just for this group, but every one else too), lessening the pain and rationalizing the plan to be education-effective (as well as socially and emotionally compassionate) as well as cost effective (same buses)ought to be maximized.
Seriously, it is understandable that there is no middle school space north of the ship canal for the time being, (Jane Addams co locates the K8 and the middle school -- so it is full up), so, if we can't get a middle school, then we should consider the pros/cons between being isolated for grade 6 alone in a WP roll up in Marshall, vs., staying at Lincoln as a temporary 1-6, then, 1-7, then, 1-8 until Jane Addams, Wilson Pacific are ready.
My kids will be nomads, tribeless nomands. We will work hard to make it work, but, some consideration from the District for these kids is only fair. There is a better solution than what they are planning.
Lincoln, 1-5 now, 1-6 next year, 1-7 next, 1-8 finally, then, it busts apart to go to the elementary campus (or campuses) and the middle school campus (or campuses). No, not ideal, but, consider the alternatives. Its the life boat to get through this storm, getting through it together, with our teachers and administration focusing on teaching these students. That's as good as it gets.
-together we thrive, divided we get ignored
It's not just Lincon kids to consider though. There's also a significant group of kids who enter APP at middle school, and these are often kids who didn't want to be at an APP only school. It would be extremely awkward to "start" Lincoln in 6th grade. I'm not saying that option isn't worth considering, but that there may be some different perspectives.
HIMSmom
@HIMSmom
But, guess what? They are not coming!
If they are already APP-eligible but have chosen not to come into the program, chances are that although they are fully qualified, socially and emotionally, they do not have a *desperate* need for it. As such, they will consider their choices, and, rather than come to a *desolate* 6th grade roll up in an interim site, which has no grass or turf fields, or track, and, has no known principal, no jazz or orchestra band, or even a PTA, and, they would be a small part of a co-housed single grade roll up, they are NOT coming.
Remember, these same kids have a dual choice, they can stay and go to Eckstein (which is where the majority come from) or Hamilton with the rest of their K5 friends. Both are fantastic, stable, great buildings with great principals and music programs established. Both are stable, although overcrowded. As such, this WP roll up plan would not relieve pressure from Eckstein or Hamilton, because those kids simply wouldn't come.
Change the offerings, (pick between Eckstein or Hamilton APP - to - pick between Ecksein or roll up isolated grade 6), and the choice that families will make clearly will change too. No more opting in. And, that would boomerang back on the rest of the entire learning communities back in Hamilton and Eckstein, as the entire buildings would continue to get more and even more overcrowded. It would even push down into the K5s, as wary parents seeing the path ahead would not move their kids out of Loyal Heights, West Woodlands, Bryant, etc. And, those schools NEED to export kids too. Desperately.
I agree that we need to think about everybody. And, to attract those not-yet-opted-in or newly qualified 6th grade APP students (which would help relieve the 3 existing middle schools), the interim 4 year housing plan needs to be made (1) PALATABLE (rather would DESIRABLE, but, let's not talk unicorns here), as strong of a choice as possible, education-wise and community-wise, and, (2) STABLE, as stable as a nomad, homeless/buildingless community can be.
Staying at Lincoln will engender stability, consistency, and clarity. The educators, already experienced with these learners, will continue to provide for their well-understood needs. Perhaps they could walk to Hamilton for zero period for instrumental music... But, that can't happen if they are pushed out to the Marshall property.
This is not my first choice, Hamilton as-is is my first choice, but, that is off the table, so let's salvage this as best we can for the next 4 or 5 years.
-we are all in this together
Will any Lincoln families go for JA as-is, without the official APP program yet?
How about a non-north end thread?
West Seattle has a decision to weigh in on.
West Seattle parents,
Look at the difficulties that North APP MS went through and be very careful what you wish for. The blog seems to be dominated by North-centric discussion because it has not been an easy split. The music program had to be created from scratch. It took THREE YEARS of constant parent lobbying and waiting for the numbers to grow before higher math kids were served. Program fidelity and rigor has been difficult to maintain (props to those teachers from WMS and HIMS who continue to meet and plan together when possible).
There may be a fair number of non-enrolled APP eligible kids in West Seattle for a small founder population, but once the new Meany MS is open, there will be room at Washington for all South APP kids. As it is none are turned away. Teachers who taught all APP pre-split now have APP only part of the day. If I were you, I would work to keep the program as is or risk diluting and losing the program integrity at both South MS sites. It may be less geographically convenient, but the bigger numbers make for a stronger program and a less insular social cohort.
sidneyd
sidneyd,
I agree - there are not enough APP kids in West Seattle to make up a viable 1-5 or 6-8 program. We don't even know who the Fairmount Park principal will be - or how they will feel about APP students. Didn't Madison avoid having a Spectrum Program as long as possible?
They would have to bus APP kids into West Seattle for this to be attractive to me.
Lynn
what do folks think of the new boundaries and plan for APP? new thread?
Implementation details are lacking - who would be teaching (new teachers or current teachers?), what curriculum, what elective options?
Sidney -- I disagree. Many West Seattle parents have asked for an APP elementary and middle school option. Now they have a choice -- stay with a small cohort in west Seattle or join a larger cohort at TM and Washington. Or stay in west Seattle for elementary, then go to Washington for middle. TM is already busting at the seams and growing. TM has a full school with 2 portables. There are 4 APP 5th grade classrooms. Washington has a huge APP cohort and can afford to lose some students who choose to stay in west Seattle until high school. Let those families make the choice. It will relieve pressure from TM and allow TM to keep its autism program and not get overcrowded. What is your solution for keeping TM from busting at the seams?
-- Thurgood Marshall Veteran
TMV,
You miss my point. I am aware that some WS parents have asked to have kids served in West Seattle at middle school. Is it really that much farther from West Seattle to WMS than from North Beach to Hamilton? It's not like you're on the Olympic peninsula. I also said nothing about elementaries. And there are plenty of elementaries with many more portables than TM has on a lot less real estate.
I was pointing out that West Seattle should take the Hamilton experience as a cautionary tale. The WMS APP teachers are rightly concerned about program viability if West Seattle kids are siphoned off. Already they no longer teach a full day of APP. There is room to grow when Meany opens. A smaller cohort endangers the ability to offer high math and high music. There is also no plan or guarantee of faithful implementation of the program. Many promises were made before the last split about training, supplies, access to math, etc.
I'll say it again: be careful what you wish for. Things are very good at WMS APP.
sidneyd
Sidney - Perhaps I misunderstood your discussion to be about both elementary and middle school, but this is about future planning for both. TM does not have alot of "real estate" for portable placement because portables can't be placed on the I-90 lid, limiting options. More important, the elementary school is approaching 500 kids fast. The cafeteria is busting at the seems and TM is already over capacity and growing. The pipeline feeding Washington is only growing. Giving West Seattle families an APP choice for elementary and middle relieves capacity pressure and addresses parent desires to stay in the west seattle community. The APP cohort at Washington will be big enough without some west seattle kids.
- TM veteran
both TM and WMS are crowded but viable.
I would hold off on implementing a solution for something that isn't actually a problem.
Placing any slice of north end APP in a neighborhood school is nuts. There's not enough capacity in the north end, and putting two populations with guaranteed assignment in the same building will only create problems. Placing north end APP in Wilson Pacific will help provide stability to every kid in the north end. I don't think it's the ideal solution, but under the circumstances (too many kids, not enough inventory, steadily growing enrollment), it's the best option for.
As a WS APP family and veteran of the Lowell split, I completely agree with Sidney's and Meg's opinions and concerns. Even with a great Principal at TM and many veteran teachers from Lowell, the post-split quality and experience was not as good. Without question the program is not the same rigor and quality as it once was, and lost many veteran teachers from the program due to the splits, and all the extra effort it took to try to return the program to a solid footing. APP is a complex program, not a brand, nor a label, nor simply "2 years ahead." It will take years to build a high quality APP program from scratch, and by then, there likely won't be room at Madison to host it, without serious overcrowding like that currently at HIMS. My apologies to my WS friends and neighbors, but Sidney and Meg's sage warnings should be heeded and as they say, there will be plenty of room at WMS after Meany comes back online. Washington's diversity is also second to none, and an incredibly valuable part of the APP middle school experience.
WS APP Veteran
It feels like Hamilton is just reaching a more stable APP program, several years after the first split. There is now a more advanced math pathway (after years of students being denied what was promised with the split), there is greater effort to align the content of APP classes, and the principal has hired some strong new teachers. The wheel will have to be reinvented yet again with new schools, new teachers, and new principals.
Have to agree with anon @8:14. HMIS is really coming into their own. Having just attended curriculum night it is clear, at least from the teachers I saw, that there is a great deal of awareness between the WMS and HIMS curriculum differences and similarities and clear efforts to align them. The district should be careful (ha!) about messing with the program the teachers and principal have built there.
I agree that setting up a new program is non-trivial. However, none of these concerns are unique to APP. I'm sure parents in the Eckstein reference area that are getting moved into JAMS or WP are thinking variants of the same thoughts. We need the new capacity as a district and a large group of students by necessity have to be the first cohort in these new facilities. It seems like this time around there is an opportunity to engage a bit earlier and work on making the transition easier.
Starting one right sized program in a neighborhood based building is worlds apart from what the district is asking of app- two too small programs without something like a neighborhood or an option program, tying them as groups, and of course at both places app can expect to be kicked out fairly quickly as usual. The neighborhood programs are getting stability, which is a pretty great thing. I think the app community could do well starting a new program if, say, it were moved entirely to Wilson pacific.
I am sure you feel you have experience since you helped with the start of a k-8, but this is not the same.
It would be really helpful if posters wrote out the names of schools, rather than "JA" "HIMS" "WMS" etc. We all know the schools in our own area, but for us newer parents it's hard to figure out what schools people are talking about. Thanks for considering!
-- Newish school parent
I have a question for Garfield families (if you are listening). I have an APP-qualified 5th grader, whom we have kept at our neighborhood (spectrum) elementary school. Our plan was to move to APP (Hamilton) for middle school next fall, but we are not excited about either of the options on the table now (John Marshall for 2 years, or cram into JAMS alongside Jane Addams K-8 with something like 20+ portables).
Here's my question . . . I know that if we don't enroll in APP in 6th grade, we are pretty much walking away from the opportunity for our child to attend Garfield HS, and I'm wondering what we will be missing. I don't know much about Garfield; I hear it's amazing, but can you tell me why? Is it that much better than the neighborhood high schools (e.g., Roosevelt) and if so, in what ways?
This is a completely sincere question -- I really have no idea what makes Garfield so great, but I would love it if someone could tell me so that my decision about APP middle school is an educated one. Thank you!
-planning ahead
I can't speak to Garfield offerings, but barring any pathway changes, Garfield could still be an option if your child tested in as a 6th or 7th grader (for 7th or 8th grade APP). Not ideal, but it's something to consider.
We enrolled our daughter to the APP program at WMS at 8th grade, just a year before high school. She is now a junior at Garfield and she is completely fine in terms of her preparation. Garfield has lots of AP offerings (including AP Calculus BC, the class only offered there and at Roosevelt) and a lot of smart kids (=nice learning environment). We are satisfied with our choice.
planning ahead,
I hope someone who knows Roosevelt well will chime in. Until then, from looking at their course catalogue, there seems to be an emphasis on everyone getting the same opportunities for rigorous classes. For example, all freshman take the same English and History classes. In the 10th grade, your student can choose to do more work in English and get credit for an honors class - but it is not a separate class. All students take AP Human Geography in the 10th grade. So - in these early years at least, there is no way to choose a class that works at your pace.
I think this comes from being a neighborhood school. They aren't set up to serve APP students. I'm sure there are lots of wonderful things about Roosevelt, and many APP students have had a great time there. My kids would be unhappy in this situation. If yours joined APP because they were unhappy in a general ed program, I'd take that into account.
Hope that helps.
Lynn
Thank Lynn,
If you have a child at Garfield, can you explain how it differs from your understanding of Roosevelt? Is there an actual APP track? (I have heard there really is no APP track in HS - just honors classes.) If APP students are completing requirements sooner, then are there more electives at Garfield? Are some of the electives geared specifically toward APP learners?
Thanks!
--planning ahead
Lynn, I think the same is true at Garfield--from what I can tell from the catalog, everyone takes the same English in 9th and 10th grades. There's an option to do extra work for an honors designation, but the classes themselves are inclusive. I'm curious to hear how that worked out for APP kids--whether they felt the class moved too slowly, whether they were challenged, etc.
HIMSmom
Hi HIMSmom and Lynn and planning,
LA9 Honors was left out of the Garfield catalog last spring, but it exists and the counselors knew about the omission and got kids signed up.
Honors and AP classes are opt-in, so you don't have to have come from APP to take them, which is nice for adding in some fresh faces to the mix. This is different from IBX at Ingraham which is more self-contained.
APP 9th graders go right into AP World at GHS, because the breadth and rigor of the middle school APP social studies prepares them for it, but they are not given that option at RHS.
Some high school classes require a prerequisite, so the famous GHS-UW Marine Bio class has freshmen who took biology at MS as well as sophomores who took bio in 9th. RHS has all 9th graders take the same physical science - the book the APP kids did in 7th grade. Math and music and foreign languages are all based on prior experience, of course, so although there is no APP track per se, there are enough kids who need the high level classes for the school to offer them. This is why the concentrated cohort is important (and tangentially, why South middle school APP should fight to avoid a split). This concentration and can also benefit kids who were not in APP by providing access to the higher class offerings if they opt in.
Garfield has more AP math and science choices than Roosevelt, so you won't run out of classes in your senior year, which looks very good to colleges. This was a concern for parents of the founding class of IBX who are now juniors. They were supposed to get community internships when they ran out of IB coursework, and I'm hoping that commitment is coming through for them next year. Can someone from IHS update us?
Roosevelt's music and foreign language are as strong as Garfield's, its drama is much stronger. It depends on what your kid wants.
Roosevelt is a very good neighborhood school with some very strong students but it's not set up for AL.
sidneyd
HIMSmom,
There are separate honors English classes in 9th and 10th grades. (There was an error in the catalogue and registration forms this yeat - 9th grade honors english was omitted. It was mentioned at registration though.) There are no separate APP classes. In subjects where they've been accelerated, APP students will have older students in their classes. It's been a good mix so far. My child has taken art electives where other students have been placed because it was the only thing that fit in their schedule. I heard complaints about obnoxious behavior in those classes. Still, the teachers were great, and the next level of those classes will be full of students who want to be there.
The teachers have been excellent - enthusiastic and helpful. Ted Howard does a great job. 1,600 students with five minute passing periods and one half hour lunch period - and I haven't heard any complaints. We're very happy.
Lynn
Thanks, sidneyd and Lynn. Very helpful in our planning!
HIMSmom
Yes, thanks to those who chimed in with info about Garfield. Very helpful. If anyone else has anything to add, please do so!
-planning ahead
I know Spanish has been a problem at Garfield this year due to a lack of teachers. Some freshman were bumped by older students and put in electives instead. Is this a problem in other areas too?
My daughter (10th grade) at Garfield, loves it. She thinks going there was the best decision of her life. She likes the feel of the school, the spirit. She actually spent one month at Ingraham waiting for the wait list to move last year, and enjoyed Ingraham a lot too. I just asked her if she wished she had stayed at Ingraham and she said no. She is really into music, so that was the reason she transferred. But now she likes the feel of the school and the community.
NEMom
I'm tired of all of the uncertainty and unappealing options. We live in the Hamilton boundary, and we will pull our kids (who are currently in 3rd and 5th grades) out of APP and send them to Hamilton instead, when the time comes for them to go to middle school. We will NOT keep them at Lincoln for 6th grade nor will we send them to John Marshall or Wilson Pacific. I've talked to other parents who feel the same way as us as well.
I completely understand the frustration of the elementary and middle school families - the amount of changes that the program has experienced in the last few years is completely ridiculous - and it is so frustrating that the district was told this would all happen when the train left the station a few years ago, yet they decided to completely ignore reason.
However - I would think very carefully about pulling your kids out of the program before high school, as it can severely limit your options. We have our kids in the APP program in order to keep them engaged, so I would question whether or not a middle school Spectrum program is going to do the job.
Also, your child will be limited in high school with class selection, which can determine whether they stay engaged through the upper level courses.
Engagement in school is extremely important for all kids, particularly during high school when other social pressures are competing for their time and attention.
You chose APP for your child for a reason, and that reason isn't going to go away because you are angry with the delivery model. There are many gifted programs across the U.S that operate on a much smaller scale than the APP program, and are very successful at meeting the kids needs.
If I were you (and granted - I'm not as my kids are already in high school) - I would absolutely grin and bear it now for the future payoff.
Its kind of like what we all teach our kids -decisions now will greatly affect your future - so try and make a good one even if it might be uncomfortable for the time being.
Good luck with the decision - I am crossing my fingers for all of you and your kids!
-GHS Parent
I have no problem with sending my child to Wilson Pacific for APP middle school. However, I am totally against peeling off APP 6th graders and then putting them into John Marshall while waiting for W-P to come online. I'm going to lobby for middle school kids to be at Lincoln during the interim period so they can access Hamilton music, sports, etc. Failing that, I would look at sending my kid to Hamilton (we would now be in the boundaries) and then transferring him to W-P when it opens.
Lincoln mom
Reposting from the SSS blog...can we please rally against this terrible OlyHills idea?
FYI FACMAC has completely argued against putting APP in Olympic Hills b/c there's no space to bring kids in from outside the area, there are so many kids - and that should be a neighborhood school. LOTS of pushback against the district on that decision. It was not FACMAC and not APP - it was all Teaching and Learning's Michael Tolley at the last minute pushing that Oly Hills APP bad idea, b/c he wants to divide up APP and stick it as far at the edge of the city as possible - the SPS plan involved busing kids from Laurelhurst up to Oly Hills! Michael Tolley doesn't care to try to understand capacity and won't listen to the experts who do. Please direct all program placement anger, whether it's over APP placement, option schools issues, or SpEd placement (PLEASE put the N-NE group of SpEd into the fully ADA compliant new Oly Hills building rather than a retrofitted old one! They're a way better fit than busing in APP!) But that's not where the district is proposing on the SpEd slides. Look at those. Get on the district and Michael Tolley's case - but APP is not the bad guy in this one. They really want to stay out of neighborhood schools b/c they've been burned that route too many times.
Signed, Whaaaat Plan?
There has been a lot of focus on the middle school mess in the North End, and rightly so, because it is a godawful mess. But I would like to hear what Washington Middle School parents think WMS will be like once Meany reopens. It seems like currently WMS has a vibrant Spectrum program and there is good synergy between Spectrum and APP at the school. But a lot of those Spectrum kids are from McGilvra, Stevens, and Montlake, and they will be at Meany in the future. Won't WMS be losing a lot when those kids are at Meany? Or will APP not be affected that much by their absence?
I recognize that Spectrum will be a good thing for Meany, so I'm not saying it's a bad plan. Just wondering about the collateral effects.
Wondering about WMS
From the Growth Boundary meeting tonight -
The district still has not decided whether or not current 6th and 7th grade APP students will be grandfathered at Hamilton. Pulling all APP out of HIMS as of next year, and splitting them between JAMS and Wilson Pacific (housed at an interim site) is still on the table for 2014.
If grandfathering is important to your family, you need to submit your comment and get counted.
Community comments included:
"No APP at Olympic Hills or JAMS, it takes up neighborhood seats" [applause] I didn't know whether it was a comment from someone not liking APP, or someone just not wanting APP to be split and moved to Olympic Hills/JAMS. Of course some of those APP kids are neighborhood kids as well...
Another random tidbit - They plan on placing a football field at the Wilson Pacific site for use by the future Lincoln High School (for practice only).
Just saw this story about last night's meeting at NH last night.
North End school plan draws a crowd
http://seattletimes.com/html/education/2021890431_schoolsmeetingxml.html
RE: the statement that no decision has yet been made re: whether current HIMS APP students will be grandfathered in:
According to p.39 of the draft plan slideshow, the option that has the greatest numbers heading to John Marshall next year is Option 1, which transitions "all" north end middle school APP students from Hamilton. According to the number presented in that proposal, however, it would seem that grandfathering is in fact presumed. Otherwise the numbers just don't add up. I believe there are in the neighborhood of 200 APP kids per grade at HIMS this year, and that's not likely to decrease next year. Since the new Wilson-Pacific 6th graders are also slated to be at John Marshall next year, and the projected enrollment is 380, it seems like Option 1 is referring to 6th graders only, not "all" north end APP kids. When the slideshow talks of "transitioning" all NE APP to John Marshall, they must mean roll-up (otherwise it's not really a transition, it's just a switch).
So why are they saying this decision hasn't been made? I guess it's possible they (a) don't fully understand their own proposal; (b) are reconsidering the option to move all--in which case I hope they're also planning for big changes in projections for how much of John Marshall they'll need to use, and how much excess capacity they'll end up with at HIMS; or (3) they are trying to appease some parents by making it seem like 6th graders won't be all alone at JM, when they actually have no intention of moving all of APP over.
HIMSmom
Curious about thoughts on or experience with moving kid from Queen Anne Elementary (QAE) to Lincoln APP. Differences between the two?
HIMSmom - The draft proposal is just that, a draft. The final plan presented to the Board may vary from the presentation as staff is still discussing alternatives. Just as students may not be grandfathered at HIMS, JAK-8 may not stay at Jane Addams.
The point is that feedback is being tabulated. If there are parts of the proposal that you support, such as grandfathering, then that needs to be submitted as comment. If there are parts of the proposal you don't support, such as splitting the elementary cohort, then submit comment.
The district wants the test scores of APP kids spread around to mask the scores of low-scoring schools.
What if the test scores of APP kids were linked to their NSAP school? Then there would be no one school with crazy high test scores that everyone loves to hate. There would be no strong disincentive (as there is now) for nominating potentially eligible kids from underrepresented groups. Principals wouldn't fear losing that top 2%.
MAP testing for fall starts September 30th. Unless you need it for Algebra placement, just say no until the district stops shuffling the kids around to satisfy their political agenda.
I have a question about Thurgood Marshall. I assume the new vice principal is being prepared to take over when Julie eventually retires. This concerns me because she was the principal at Lawton who dismantled their Spectrum program. (Conveniently omitted from the work history she shared in the school newsletter.) Is there a current TM parent who can tell me if she seems like a good fit for the school? We were planning to enroll a child there next year.
Thanks,
Lynn
Lynn -- Your assumption does not jibe with District policy or TM's history. 2 years ago TM reached the population size warranting a vice principal. Instead of a Vice Principal, the District allowed Julie B. to hire a "Head Teacher" (Toni B.), who functioned much like a Vice Principal. TM was permitted to use the extra staffing money saved on other staffing needs. Last spring the District changed its staffing standards and TM was required to hire a Vice Principal instead of a head teacher. Hence, the hiring of this year's Vice Principal. The District does not usually hire Vice Principals as trainees for Principal positions in the same school. It is just as likely that the current Vice Principal will fill an open Principal position elsewhere before Julie B. retires, or that another person with more seniority, etc. would be named as Principal upon Julie B's retirement if and when that happens. I would avoid making placement decisions for your child based on pure speculation and rumor about district staffing decisions that can change on a dime. Do you have any factual basis for your speculation?
--TM veteran
Dear Wondering About WMS,
I think reopening Meany will be good for WMS and Central kids in general. There will still be a Spectrum program at WMS (and all middle schools, I believe), and while the Spectrum program may be a smaller piece of the school, the APP program will be proportionally larger (since the total number of students will be smaller). I think there will continue to be a good diversity of kids, but without the overcrowding.
My only caveat is that if the district splits the APP kids, Washington may lose the critical mass required to offer higher math and to sustain the excellent music and other programs which benefit all the Washington kids.
The District is not planning to "split" the kids along the model of the Washington/HIMS split of 5 years ago. Rather, the West Seattle kids will have a choice of staying in West Seattle or going to Washinton. The bulk of APP South kids will go to Washington and that group won't be too small. The numbers suggest a continued robust APP cohort at Washington. Consider that the current 5th grade APP class at TM is almost double the size (4 APP classes) as the current Washington 8th grade cohort (2 classes) when they were at TM. Even if a chunk of kids leaves for West Seattle, APP grows in middle school and the Washington classes in the pipeline are bigger than those that preceded them. If antsy thing, the question is whether the West Seattle cohort will be big enough to thrive in West Seattle. It is nice those West Seattle families will be given a choice (between bad commute and small cohort).
-- APP parent
TM Veteran - no factual basis - that why I said I assume. Thank you for responding.
Lynn
To say Ms. Helm "dismantled" Spectrum is a mischaracterization. She actually allowed self-contained to continue for its second and final year at Lawton. During that year she oversaw the turmoil and meetings and the committee that discussed Spectrum.
Post a Comment