Congrats to all the SPS high schools who are highly ranked according to the US News criteria. One caveat to be aware according to our principal, there are factors with the US World News Report which can artificially propel some schools higher than others when other schools actually have much better outcomes.
One factor for example is that Roosevelt requires all their students to take one specific AP course that is not very rigorous. This particular course barely meets state graduation requirements and so some schools don't offer it in favor of being able to offer a different more rigorous AP course in its place they do not require all students to take.
In addition, schools such as Garfield have a much higher proportion of non-white students which is factored heavily in the US News rankings. Other schools actually may have better outcomes overall amongst all their students (graduation rate, test pass rate etc) but have less racial diversity so they are not ranked as highly.
In evaluating the outcomes of our schools one compare district outcomes for each school. Ballard for example actually had the highest graduation rates (94%) as well as test scores in the district overall recently. Roosevelt was a close second. More affluent schools always tend to have the highest graduation and test scores in a district. This is another bias.
I see Ingraham is ranked 133 this year (weird), but rest assured in previous years Ingraham has been ranked similarly to Roosevelt, Ballard, Garfield etc. There are also years SPS high schools chose to opt out of being ranked at all, likely due to the skewed influences on calculations. I really would not give this report that much weight due to the skewed influences. You can look at our district data reports to see graduation, test results etc. However also keep in mind that overall wealthier schools with lower overall numbers of FRL kids tend to score higher. This is also not a great indicator of overall school quality as many schools that are diverse have alot to offer. I do not have a child at Ingraham, but I know plenty of happy students and parents of HC kids. Many HC students are fortunate to be able to choose Ingraham as an option, as well as their pathway & neighborhood school if different. We went through that process and and IMO they were all really great options. If your kid is interested in the IB program, I would not hesitate. It's a great school.
I would also like to add (in addition to IB) the AP schools also offer a rigorous curriculum recognized as such by in and out of state and selective colleges. Some parents will favor IB over AP and vice versa, but if you do your research you will find both are looked upon favorably by US colleges. If your kid wants to attend a college outside of the US, IB is probably better recognized. I have a friend who had a child at Garfield years ago (2008 or so?) when the first IBX cohort began at Ingraham. Although IB (not IBX) had been at Ingraham prior for a long time, the district had a very difficult time convincing the HCC (APP) parents of the Garfield AP pathway to send the first cohort of HCC (APP) kids to Ingraham for IBX. There ensued a debate between whether IB or AP route is better etc. and such it continues amongst HCC parents to this day. AP & IB are great.
In my cursory glance, I think there was a data quality issue wrt IHS in the rankings. They were given a very low math/ela proficiency score that just doesn't match the OSPI data.
Overall it has better 10th grade pass rates that GHS and slightly lower rates for historically under served populations. So you'd expect roughly in the same ball scores for the 2 schools under this category and they are wildly different. The raw IHS scores just look wrong on the rankings.
However as others have stated, these rankings are way too crude to be used to decide between AP or IB. So despite posting this (there is a lot of interesting data here) I don't obsess over them too much.
YMMV. AP or IB, classes are only as good as their teachers. Some teachers may know their stuff, understand the AP/IB expectations, and fully prepare their students to do well on the outside assessments (retired Ballard AP Calc teacher Nutting comes to mind), others not so much. But that has been our experience in SPS in general.
As far as IHS, what percent of students take AP/IB classes, and then take and pass the exams (that counts heavily in the rankings)?
Agree (to an extent) many AP and IB are as good as their teachers. That's true with any course anywhere. It is even more difficult to compare "honors" courses or any other courses between teachers and schools as curriculum is not standardized. AP and IB are also one of the only available somewhat standardized curriculum available for college admission personnel and other to assess applicants. However, college admission personnel also are aware some schools have more offerings and opportunities than others. Therefore they often assess applicants (fairly) within the context of peers and what is offered at their individual schools. Schools in districts outside of SPS for example offer BOTH IB and AP.
This is true with other schools not just Ingraham, but I agree they got Ingraham really wrong this past year. Various factors weigh into their methodology. Their criteria is heavily skewed on multiple variables.
One variable they rate highly is the proportion of students who take and/or pass an AP (perhaps also IB) class. Some schools require ALL THEIR students to take one specific AP class, such as RHS. As mentioned BHS for example does not require all students take the specific AP course that RHS requires of all students, in favor of offering a choice of different AP courses in that category they feel are more rigorous. They don't require all students take an AP course.
BHS is therefore ranked one notch lower than RHS. BHS & RHS are very close in various outcomes year to year and I did not check outcomes from this past year. However, a year or so ago I remember BHS actually had the higher grad (BHS 94% versus RHS 88%) & test pass rates, yet ranked quite a few notches lower than RHS. Both schools have very little economic and racial diversity and that really affects their rankings negatively in this particular report.
Eastside schools such as Bellevue, Newport have very large minority populations of whom are overwhelmingly Asian and E. Indian and affluent. They are similar in outcomes to Roosevelt and Ballard in percentage of economically disadvantaged. They are always rate higher in the US news reports as well, in part due to their large non-white population. This is another example of a skewed methodology in my opinion.
The district puts out school profiles for each of the high schools and you can compare individual school outcomes. There are limitations to these reports as well. One thing the district does not capture IMO is changing demographic trends between grades. For example we know the percentage of HC kids have skyrocketed past two years at Roosevelt and Ballard for younger grades. Older grades have less (more kids went to Garfield then) so the overall gifted enrollment reported for the entire school does not reflect reality in individual grade levels.
I have heard that Asian applicants to universities (not caucasian) will likely be affected most negatively by the recent passage of WA legislation which can now consider race, gender etc. They are organizing to appeal it.
These are interesting statistics that UW overwhelmingly has Asian students attending, especially if you add International students who are majority Asian. I recently heard that WA state resident racial makeup is 78% caucasian, 3.6% black, 7.7 % Asian, 12% Latino/Hispanic.
However, the UW racial makeup is only 38% Caucasian (includes non-European), 23% Asian Wa resident (that stat also excludes SE Asian, Filipino etc who are broken out separately if you add those ethnicities in stat is 31% Asian WA residents), 4.1% black, 8.4% Latino/Hispanic. International students are overwhelming majority Asian, but also broken out separately at 15.2%.
Regional demographics need to be considered. Looking at some areas districts: Bellevue School District is 39.4% Asian; Issaquah, 28.9%; and Lake Washington, 28.0% (2017-18, OSPI).
One cannot jut look at public school demographics as 28% in Seattle send their children to private schools.
Regional demographics for Seattle (where the UW is located) are 69.5% white non-hispanic. As a state institution, and the only local state college within commuting distance one might expect the UW to more closely match demographics of either the state or Seattle. I have heard multiple stories of Seattle students (specifically) with 4.0 GPA's not gaining admission to UW. The population at UW is also not reflective at all of the population in Seattle, not just the state. Latest figures are Seattle is 69% White, Hispanic/Latino is 6.6%, Black 7.9% and Asian is 13.8% in Seattle and that figure includes all Asian ethnic groups, including SE Asian. For Bellevue here are some stats White 55.92% Asian 33.85% Black or African American 2.80%.
Looking at these numbers it appears that UW may be enrolling much larger numbers of Asian applicant students from the Eastside. But perhaps these statistics also demonstrate they are unfortunately turning away very large numbers of Seattle students (including many white applicants) who live in Seattle. It is a shame we don't have additional state universities in our vicinity.
However, my point is that one might have expected white students to be opposed to the new legislation. However, they are obviously not benefitting at all from their stating their race in admission and are in fact actually very underrepresented. They are also underrepresented in the gifted programs on the Eastside as well. However, Asian groups are organizing and much more vocally opposed to using race as a factor in admission and in WA state.
15 comments:
Yay, GHS!
Congrats to all the SPS high schools who are highly ranked according to the US News criteria. One caveat to be aware according to our principal, there are factors with the US World News Report which can artificially propel some schools higher than others when other schools actually have much better outcomes.
One factor for example is that Roosevelt requires all their students to take one specific AP course that is not very rigorous. This particular course barely meets state graduation requirements and so some schools don't offer it in favor of being able to offer a different more rigorous AP course in its place they do not require all students to take.
In addition, schools such as Garfield have a much higher proportion of non-white students which is factored heavily in the US News rankings. Other schools actually may have better outcomes overall amongst all their students (graduation rate, test pass rate etc) but have less racial diversity so they are not ranked as highly.
In evaluating the outcomes of our schools one compare district outcomes for each school. Ballard for example actually had the highest graduation rates (94%) as well as test scores in the district overall recently. Roosevelt was a close second. More affluent schools always tend to have the highest graduation and test scores in a district. This is another bias.
data
That is good info, data. Statistics are so complicated...
Any ideas why Ingraham performed so poorly on the rankings? Because we felt the IB program there was a great choice for a rigorous curriculum.
-Interested
Are IB courses ranked similarly to AP?
Scrawny Kayaker
I see Ingraham is ranked 133 this year (weird), but rest assured in previous years Ingraham has been ranked similarly to Roosevelt, Ballard, Garfield etc. There are also years SPS high schools chose to opt out of being ranked at all, likely due to the skewed influences on calculations. I really would not give this report that much weight due to the skewed influences. You can look at our district data reports to see graduation, test results etc. However also keep in mind that overall wealthier schools with lower overall numbers of FRL kids tend to score higher. This is also not a great indicator of overall school quality as many schools that are diverse have alot to offer. I do not have a child at Ingraham, but I know plenty of happy students and parents of HC kids. Many HC students are fortunate to be able to choose Ingraham as an option, as well as their pathway & neighborhood school if different. We went through that process and and IMO they were all really great options. If your kid is interested in the IB program, I would not hesitate. It's a great school.
I would also like to add (in addition to IB) the AP schools also offer a rigorous curriculum recognized as such by in and out of state and selective colleges. Some parents will favor IB over AP and vice versa, but if you do your research you will find both are looked upon favorably by US colleges. If your kid wants to attend a college outside of the US, IB is probably better recognized. I have a friend who had a child at Garfield years ago (2008 or so?) when the first IBX cohort began at Ingraham. Although IB (not IBX) had been at Ingraham prior for a long time, the district had a very difficult time convincing the HCC (APP) parents of the Garfield AP pathway to send the first cohort of HCC (APP) kids to Ingraham for IBX. There ensued a debate between whether IB or AP route is better etc. and such it continues amongst HCC parents to this day. AP & IB are great.
In my cursory glance, I think there was a data quality issue wrt IHS in the rankings. They were given a very low math/ela proficiency score that just doesn't match the OSPI data.
Overall it has better 10th grade pass rates that GHS and slightly lower rates for historically under served populations. So you'd expect roughly in the same ball scores for the 2 schools under this category and they are wildly different. The raw IHS scores just look wrong on the rankings.
However as others have stated, these rankings are way too crude to be used to decide between AP or IB. So despite posting this (there is a lot of interesting data here) I don't obsess over them too much.
YMMV. AP or IB, classes are only as good as their teachers. Some teachers may know their stuff, understand the AP/IB expectations, and fully prepare their students to do well on the outside assessments (retired Ballard AP Calc teacher Nutting comes to mind), others not so much. But that has been our experience in SPS in general.
As far as IHS, what percent of students take AP/IB classes, and then take and pass the exams (that counts heavily in the rankings)?
Agree (to an extent) many AP and IB are as good as their teachers. That's true with any course anywhere. It is even more difficult to compare "honors" courses or any other courses between teachers and schools as curriculum is not standardized. AP and IB are also one of the only available somewhat standardized curriculum available for college admission personnel and other to assess applicants. However, college admission personnel also are aware some schools have more offerings and opportunities than others. Therefore they often assess applicants (fairly) within the context of peers and what is offered at their individual schools. Schools in districts outside of SPS for example offer BOTH IB and AP.
This is true with other schools not just Ingraham, but I agree they got Ingraham really wrong this past year. Various factors weigh into their methodology. Their criteria is heavily skewed on multiple variables.
One variable they rate highly is the proportion of students who take and/or pass an AP (perhaps also IB) class. Some schools require ALL THEIR students to take one specific AP class, such as RHS. As mentioned BHS for example does not require all students take the specific AP course that RHS requires of all students, in favor of offering a choice of different AP courses in that category they feel are more rigorous. They don't require all students take an AP course.
BHS is therefore ranked one notch lower than RHS. BHS & RHS are very close in various outcomes year to year and I did not check outcomes from this past year. However, a year or so ago I remember BHS actually had the higher grad (BHS 94% versus RHS 88%) & test pass rates, yet ranked quite a few notches lower than RHS. Both schools have very little economic and racial diversity and that really affects their rankings negatively in this particular report.
data
Eastside schools such as Bellevue, Newport have very large minority populations of whom are overwhelmingly Asian and E. Indian and affluent. They are similar in outcomes to Roosevelt and Ballard in percentage of economically disadvantaged. They are always rate higher in the US news reports as well, in part due to their large non-white population. This is another example of a skewed methodology in my opinion.
The district puts out school profiles for each of the high schools and you can compare individual school outcomes. There are limitations to these reports as well. One thing the district does not capture IMO is changing demographic trends between grades. For example we know the percentage of HC kids have skyrocketed past two years at Roosevelt and Ballard for younger grades. Older grades have less (more kids went to Garfield then) so the overall gifted enrollment reported for the entire school does not reflect reality in individual grade levels.
momof3
I have heard that Asian applicants to universities (not caucasian) will likely be affected most negatively by the recent passage of WA legislation which can now consider race, gender etc. They are organizing to appeal it.
These are interesting statistics that UW overwhelmingly has Asian students attending, especially if you add International students who are majority Asian. I recently heard that WA state resident racial makeup is 78% caucasian, 3.6% black, 7.7 % Asian, 12% Latino/Hispanic.
However, the UW racial makeup is only 38% Caucasian (includes non-European), 23% Asian Wa resident (that stat also excludes SE Asian, Filipino etc who are broken out separately if you add those ethnicities in stat is 31% Asian WA residents), 4.1% black, 8.4% Latino/Hispanic. International students are overwhelming majority Asian, but also broken out separately at 15.2%.
Regional demographics need to be considered. Looking at some areas districts: Bellevue School District is 39.4% Asian; Issaquah, 28.9%; and Lake Washington, 28.0% (2017-18, OSPI).
One cannot jut look at public school demographics as 28% in Seattle send their children to private schools.
Regional demographics for Seattle (where the UW is located) are 69.5% white non-hispanic. As a state institution, and the only local state college within commuting distance one might expect the UW to more closely match demographics of either the state or Seattle. I have heard multiple stories of Seattle students (specifically) with 4.0 GPA's not gaining admission to UW. The population at UW is also not reflective at all of the population in Seattle, not just the state. Latest figures are Seattle is 69% White, Hispanic/Latino is 6.6%, Black 7.9% and Asian is 13.8% in Seattle and that figure includes all Asian ethnic groups, including SE Asian. For Bellevue here are some stats White 55.92% Asian 33.85% Black or African American 2.80%.
Looking at these numbers it appears that UW may be enrolling much larger numbers of Asian applicant students from the Eastside. But perhaps these statistics also demonstrate they are unfortunately turning away very large numbers of Seattle students (including many white applicants) who live in Seattle. It is a shame we don't have additional state universities in our vicinity.
However, my point is that one might have expected white students to be opposed to the new legislation. However, they are obviously not benefitting at all from their stating their race in admission and are in fact actually very underrepresented. They are also underrepresented in the gifted programs on the Eastside as well. However, Asian groups are organizing and much more vocally opposed to using race as a factor in admission and in WA state.
Bellevue stats are actually 62% white, 27.6 Asian, but that number also includes SE Asian and all other groups, 2.2% Black.
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