Thursday, February 14, 2013

Picking between Ingraham and Garfield

By request, since tours are starting, a thread for APP parents to discuss the choice between Ingraham and Garfield for high school.

Update: Let's broaden this thread beyond Garfield and Ingraham to talk about high school choices in general.

81 comments :

Anonymous said...

Could anyone "in the know " comment on what the main academic difference is between Ingraham's IBX and the Garfield's AP program.
When this question was raised by a parent on Tuesday night at HIMS, the counselors gave only 2 hints:
- the IBX program is "text heavy" and in the end the students have to write essays
- at the end of the AP courses students need to take a test full with multiple choice questions
Is there anything more the students need to know before making the decision about which HS they will attend?
HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

Can anyone provide a link to the IBx packet that was available Tuesday night?

trying to decide

Anonymous said...

I attended the meeting and flipped through the info packet. My overall impression is that the IBX is less flexible in terms of course selection. There are also greater time commitments for some components of IBX: 1) an extended essay that is supposed to be worked on over one summer, 2) a 150 hr service commitment, and 3) the need to take a language over the summer in order to start language in the 2nd year as a freshman. Our child wants to start a different language in high school - one not offered at Hamilton - and should IBX be chosen, that would necessitate taking a language course over a summer. Not ideal.

The senior year still seems a bit hazy since there hasn't yet been a class to go through the internships or IB electives and college level classes. I'm not yet convinced of the advantages of accelerating through the IB program for some yet to be determined senior year. Will the internshps materialize? Will the additional electives be worthwhile? Will they really be able to coordinate the college level classes they are talking about? There was also a question about textbooks. Different texts are needed for the IB program and supposedly there hasn't been a district textbook adoption for IB. Uh, so what's the plan?

My impression of IB is that is more about depth than breadth, whereas AP is more about breadth than depth. That was the comment about IB exams vs AP exams. It sounded as though IB exams were more essay based while AP exams were more multiple choice.

There will be another info night on APP/IBX at Ingraham. This would probably be a better forum for specific questions. I left Hamilton's info session with lots of questions.

HIMS2

Anonymous said...

The APP/IBX info night is scheduled for 2/20, 7-8 at Ingraham. There is a daytime tour the same day, 8:15 - 9:30.

In terms of time commitment, there is also a "Theory of Knowledge" course which is given as an "extra-curricular seminar," meaning a 7th period afterschool. According to the info packet, it's 2:45-4:15, two days a week (M/W, T/Th, or T/F), for 2nd semester of one year and 1st semester of the next year.

Anonymous said...

Part 1:

We have a freshman at Garfield this year - APP from Washington. The two high school options for APP are VERY different and you really need to think about your individual kid to figure out which one would be the best option.

It goes beyond AP vs. IBX. Yes the AP tests are currently very broad and include multiple choice questions; however, there are essay and short answer portions as well. The AP curriculum is also currently being redefined to add depth and take out breadth. AP Environmental Science is part of that new curriculum I believe. There are kids at Garfield this year that have been accepted at Stanford, USC and Princeton (however most are still waiting to hear) - so my feeling is that Garfield offers a great college prep education.

As far as I can tell, APP students are doing well at both schools.

I will talk about Garfield from first-hand experience - and I have some feedback from friends whose kids are at Ingraham.

Garfield:
1. No APP-only classes. Most freshman APP students take the following core classes: Algebra II, AP World History, Oceanography (Marine Biology) and Honors Language Arts. These classes all include sophomores and some juniors. You can take the Oceanography class for UW credit for a very affordable cost - $350 gets you 5 credit hours that will go on your college transcript. We do know of a few freshman that are in Pre-Calculus.

2. Electives can be hard to get into if you are not in music. The majority of music kids take music and a language for their electives. Our kid isn't a music kid - and options include drama, choir, fine art (ceramics, photography, drawing & painting), financial algebra, journalism, P.E., Health. The Health class is rumored to be quite bad -- many kids opt out and take it online. It takes a few rounds with the counselor (100% student directed - no parental input encouraged) to change your schedule but it gets done.

3. Garfield is very student driven - the kids are extremely independent running all clubs (POST, Messenger, too many clubs to mention and service opportunities).

Anonymous said...

I have been waiting to post this and this seems like the thread for it.

Both Ingraham and Garfield are in poor locations for us. Has anyone opted out of APP and chosen Ballard HS? I have heard some say that their kids are bored in their AP program.

Thanks for any input.
-Another HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

Part II:

4. It is a large school - very social and kids from all walks of life. Negatives - we get the feeling that alcohol and marijuana use is fairly prevalent - not with the freshman yet (although there have been a few) but the sophomores seem pretty involved. Could be my perception because that stuff completely freaks me out - and I'm not sure what other high schools are like. However - a friend of mine whose kids go to Lakeside said it is prevalent there as well so it just may be the world in which we live. We are talking to our kids about it constantly - keeping lines of communication open is key.

5. The kids seem pretty happy. Our kid noted that they don't know anyone who doesn't like Garfield. Its fun and a big, wide world - which many of the kids are ready for.

My notes on Ingraham:

Our child still has some good friends from Lowell (yes - four years later he still misses them) so he is in contact with them pretty frequently.

One of the kids has completely found his place at Ingraham. He is in the Rocket Club and is really thriving in the strong academic environment. I would place him in the top 1% of APP - and accelerated IBX is perfect for him.

A couple of other friends have mentioned that Ingraham is too small. I'm guessing that comes from the fact that the kids are still taking core classes with the same kids that they have been with for years. My guess is that will by alleviated somewhat as they progress through the program and other non-APP students are included in their classrooms.

Ingraham is a 3A school and Garfield is 4A - so sportswise they don't meet each other (unfortunately -because that would be fun). Garfield cross-country, track, basketball and boy's soccer are extremely competitive. The other teams seem to get beat up a bit - but the team atmosphere is great.

That's my (very long) two cents. Both options are good - just follow your gut and know (and listen) to your kid. They are old enough to know what feels right.

Good Luck!

-GHS Freshman Parent

Anonymous said...

I should elaborate in case there is any misunderstanding: Ingraham and Garfield are in geographical locations that will make it very difficult to get to after school activities in a safe and timely manner.

So we are thinking Ballard HS - is that a bad plan? Both Ingraham and Garfield seem quite awesome.

-Another HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

In terms of access to drugs - public or private, they will be present. At the private college-prep high school I attended, students smoked during the school day, at school. Parents were out of town more often, which made for more parties with alcohol. If anything, it was easier to get access to alcohol and marijuana.

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much for starting this thread! We are looking at these two choices as well. I do know they are very different, each with positives and negatives.

Thanks Part 1 and 11 Anon at 8:58am - that's very good feedback.

I would be really interested in hearing from parents of 9th or 10th graders who have gone through this decision process in the past couple of years, and how their kid likes or doesn't like their current school.

Also, any feedback on college admissions for kids in Ingraham's IB program? (I know IBX hasn't graduated a class yet).

-HIMS parent

Anonymous said...

Similar to the question on Ballard High School - are there any APP students who have ended up choosing Roosevelt over Garfield/Ingraham?

thanks.

Maureen said...

Re college admissions at Ingraham. Last time I was in the building, I saw a display outside the counseling office (main hall, just south of the main office)that showed the colleges IHS students had been accepted to over the past few (3?) years. You might want to check it out if you go to visit. I recall, Stanford and several Ivies and lots of good LACs.

pm said...

From the October 2012 BARK newsletter (PTSA newsletter for Garfield):

Overall 38% of Garfield HS
students report some alcohol use
in the past 30 days. The rate is
slightly higher than observed in
the 2010 survey (@ 33%).These
rates increase as the students get
older; from as low as 24.8% for
9th graders to as high as 53.4%
for 12th graders.
• Overall 33.3% of Garfield HS
students report some marijuana
use in the past 30 days. The rate
is substantially greater than
observed in the 2010 survey
(23.7 %). These rates increase
as the students get older; from
as low as 26.4% for 9th graders
to as high as 47.4% for 12th
graders.
• Over 6 % report driving while
drinking alcohol in the last 30
days. About 16 % of the 12th
graders report this behavior.
Over 11% report driving while
smoking marijuana in the last 30
days. Almost 25% of the 12th
graders report this behavior.
• Over 57% report accessing
alcohol from some source in the
last year. The more common
sources include: “someone’s
home with parents/guardians
NOT present” (69.6 %),
“family celebration” (41.2%),
“adults or older youth who buy
or give alcohol” (36.5%), and
“party or gathering in the
community” (36.6%)
• In total almost 44% report
accessing marijuana from some
source in the last year. The more
common sources include
“someone’s home with parents/
guardians NOT
present” (66.8%) and “buying it
directly from and adult or
youth” (66.8%).
• We see an increase in the
prevalence of many different
marijuana access sources when
comparing the 2010 and 2012
data. The most substantial
change is the increase in
likelihood of access from
“buying it directly from an adult
or youth” from 44.4 to 66.8%
over the two years

pm said...

Here's the link to the source: http://garfieldhs.seattleschools.org/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/1708836/File/PTSA/Bark/October%202012%20BARK.pdf

Drugs and alcohol may be common at Ingraham, too, but I can't find the data.

Anonymous said...

Good luck finding a school in which your child won't be exposed to drugs and alcohol. I attended a college-prep high school and was admitted to a top-rated college. I was a nerrrrrd. And yet in my sophomore year alone, I was offered: coke, pot, heroine, LSD, shrooms, whippits (sp?) and booze. I was lucky, I suppose, in that I refused pretty much everything but the booze (in what reminded me, every time, of a deleted scene from the children's book "What Do You Say, Dear?"), having already observed the way some of my peers had completely lost their way.

Talk to your kids about drug use: "safe" prescription drugs, offered drugs, the difficulties of peer pressure and coolness hanging over the acceptance or refusal of all of it. Because it is hard to say no, and risk the disapproval of the seemingly cool kids.

-Just sayin'

Anonymous said...

In IBx can kids fit in band/orchestra/theater every year. It looks like IB requires an arts course that would bump a performance class for at least a year.

If a student comes into 9th grade with one credit/year of foreign language, they take the second year in 9th grade. Then it looks like they skip to the 4th year for IBx in 10th grade? How does that work?

considering IBx

protected static said...

To those asking about Ballard & Roosevelt - we dropped Ballard from our list after we compared graduation rates, matriculation rates, and the number of AP courses.

Roosevelt & Garfield are pretty similar in those three measures. The biggest difference we noted was that Roosevelt grads were more likely to enroll in public 4-year schools, while Garfield skewed more towards private 4-year schools.

Ballard offered far fewer AP classes and had a lower graduation and matriculation rate. You could even see differences in 2-year matriculation: Ballard grads went to Shoreline and NSCC, while Roosevelt & Garfield grads were more likely to go to Bellevue.

We'd be fine with Roosevelt as an option. Ballard... not so much. It isn't a *bad* school - it just didn't seem as college-oriented as Roosevelt.

Maureen said...

It's not clear to me why an APP family would be concerned about 4 year matriculation rates. It seems pretty unlikely that those rates would materially impact such a kid (not saying all APP kids finish HS in 4 years-just that as long as there was a cohort of kids on schedule the rate wouldn't matter.)

I sort of see why number of AP classes would matter, but would think that the actual list of AP classes would be more important: A kid headed for Engineering might want to have access to AP Physics, for instance. But if your kid wants to go into film, Ballard might be the best choice. Musical Theater? Roosevelt.

I have an APP qualified TOPS grad who went to Roosevelt. Good school for him (math was exceptional). My younger APP qualified TOPS grad is at Ingraham (PreIB not IBx). Great fit for her. Know your kid, go and look.

protected static said...

@Maureen - by 4-year matriculation, I meant attendance at 4-year colleges or universities. A lower rate suggests a cohort that overall is less invested in higher education. This is unlikely to change the trajectory of an APP student, but I could potentially see problems with, say, college guidance counselling.

Again, the differences weren't huge - but they were noticeable. Are those differences significant? I don't know. But it didn't make sense for us to look further into Ballard given that Roosevelt seemed like a good fit for our child. As you said, individual fit matters...

Anonymous said...

I have an APP eligible kid at Roosevelt. In our experience the math dept is good. Physics dept is good. Biology & chemistry very mediocre. Great foreign language teachers, music, & drama. AP social studies classes are like survey courses, tons of memorizing, very little depth. LA is a mixed bag, some amazing, some not.


What college counseling? There isn't any. If you want it, be prepared to pay someone.

RHS parent

Anonymous said...

Thanks everyone for your input and ideas, esp. regarding Ballard HS. I know of APP level kids who go to Ballard but those are generally interested in Ballard's really excellent film program. Many of those have gone on to study film at the New York film academy. My kid isn't really interested in that so I am worried that Ballard will not provide the best AP general ed.

My impression from afar of the Ingraham IBX program is that it could be great for students going in a non-tech direction (business, government, humanities, liberal arts?). But if health sciences or Biology is your students' focus maybe Garfield would be a better fit?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

-another HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if Ingraham IBX materials are available online? I can't seem to find them.

Also, is there much flexibility in the IBX schedule? If a kid is unusually advanced in math or has several years of language already, can they accelerate beyond their IBX cohort, or do they need to stay on the same track?

Finally, I have a similar impression as Another HIMS Mom--that IBX is not as good a fit for kids who are particularly interested in math, science, computer programming, etc.--but I don't have much basis for that impression. Any insights from those with mathy/techy kids in IBX?

HIMSmom

hschinske said...

Math and foreign language classes go by placement at Ingraham, same as anywhere. So far my son seems happy with the math and science. It's possible the chemistry is on the easy side, as he doesn't seem to bring much work home there, but I don't have a good sense of that.

The rocketry and robotics clubs are good outlets for tech types. I assume the presence of the Academy of Information Technology has benefited the general resources for computer science instruction (and there is an IB computer science class), but I haven't heard much about people's experiences in that area.

Incidentally, don't forget about the biotech program at Ballard. It sounds terrific for the right kid.

Helen Schinske

Anonymous said...

Good point - I was starting to lean back toward Ballard because of their biotech program and then I saw the US news high school rankings:

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/washington/rankings

And Ballard was not even in the ranked top 50. That seems almost unbelievable to me. Are those ranks corrupt? Garfield, Ingraham and Roosevelt were there in good standing. Interesting.

-another HIMS mom

Maureen said...

USNews HS rankings are based largely on the percent of students who enroll in AP or IB classes (not pass, or even take, the AP or IB test).

Roosevelt requires EVERY student (including ELL and Special Ed) to take two AP classes (Human Geography and English Language and Composition I think). IB at IHS has pulled in many of their students from other attendance areas. I think Garfield also requires everyone to take one or two AP classes (plus they have hundreds of APP students who disproportionately enroll in AP classes). So the numbers at those schools look really good.

Now whether those required AP classes full of kids who don't volunteer to be there (and getting limited support to succeed there) are actually taught at a college level and best serve the kids who really want to be there is an open question.

Sometimes the focus on rankings (HS and college) makes me want to scream--it creates such crazy incentive systems for the schools.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for that info Maureen, I thought there must be some gimmick or weighting that I wasn't aware of.

-another HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

As I read this discussion (which is a great one!), I am wondering what the real changes of getting your kiddo into any of these schools really is (if not your attendance school)?

Anonymous said...

Anon@1:04,

Good point - in our case I am assuming from the confusing info on the district APP site, that APP students can opt for APP at Garfield or IBX at Ingraham regardless of your residence locale. Help me out here if I am wrong about this.

Ballard is our reference school so that is what we were considering as an alternative. I am assuming, as you point out, that Roosevelt would not be an option for us regardless.

Anybody have clearer info?

-another HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

-another HIMS Mom,

That is what I understand as well - your choices are Ingraham IBX, Garfield or your reference high school.

I am not sure what the default is for the upcoming year, however. Last year, you had to choose Ingraham (or your reference school) or default to Garfield.

Are they now defaulting North-end APP to Ingraham and you have to choose Garfield (or reference school)?

-GHS Freshman Parent

Anonymous said...

Officially all APP students are assigned to Garfield (from WMS and HIMS).
If you don't do anything, your student will be enrolled there.
If you choose to change your school to the Ingraham IBX program, or to your local HS in the Open Enrollment period (that is coming up I think in 2 weeks), your student will loose her/his place at Garfield and she/he will be assigned to your chosen school. You could list another (not reference) school as a second or third alternative but you will be wait listed there.
HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

any feedback on the social aspects of Ingraham, Garfield, or Ballard would be helpful. Obviously a big difference between GHS and IHS in terms of sheer size of the student body as well as proportion of super academically focused students. So if yr kid does better with a small school, IHS would work better on that front. But i also remember years ago hearing anecdotally about a real or perceived sense of separation between the kids who entered Garfield from the APP program (only from WMS at that time I think) and the neighborhood kids. Now the GHS boundaries have changed as has the APP-qualified kids who attend (because of the IBX program) so has that affected the social vibe of Garfield? What about IHS and Ballard, do you know if kids are loving (or not) the overall experience? Appreciate any feedback from current IHS and GHS parents,as well as Ballard if you know, thanks so much.
-prospective HS parent

hschinske said...

One of my daughters (who was not in APP) was at Garfield and had an incredibly diverse group of friends -- certainly including many in and out of APP.

I don't think there is any requirement to take an AP course at Garfield.

Helen Schinske

Anonymous said...

There were several kids who made other choices (IBX, RHS) who then changed their minds after school started. They ended up on the waiting list to get back into Garfield and it took a couple of weeks.

sidneyd

Maureen said...

sidneyd do you know if those kids lived in the GHS catchment area? If not, I'm surprised to hear that they would be permitted to switch back given that GHS had no open choice seats.

Anonymous said...

I personally know of three kids (9th grade) at GHS that were waitlisted and did get in a few weeks into school- and were NOT in the GHS reference area. One went to RHS from Hamilton (APP), another to IBX from Hamilton (APP) and a third that went to Franklin from WMS (not APP).

I was surprised as well that Garfield let them in because I thought there were no open choice seats.

-GHS Parent

Anonymous said...

Any thoughts on last night's Garfield open house? I thought the academics were impressive, but had some reservations. So many great electives with the caveat you may never get into any of them. Also, that one history teacher who spoke was somewhat dissuasive for my kid as far as the amount of homework. He said a "minimum of 30 hours per week" - one hour of homework for every hour of instruction. Is that the case? It seems like a lot, but I just don't know. Would love to hear more thoughts on that open house.

Looking ahead

Anonymous said...

Having completed two morning tours that focused on the schools not the program offerings, here are my thoughts:

Ballard – Tons of energy in that school. They emphasize finding clubs and sports to help make it a smaller learning community. (and it is a big school!)

They talk in broad strokes about academic opportunities – AP classes, UW credited classes and the academies. For APP students I think that they can continue their pathway for math and science very easily, especially if they choose BioTech and get in at 9th grade. LA and SS may be a bit redundant. I did not get the sense that 9th graders were allowed to take AP classes – but I could be wrong. I know they can take an honors option for both LA and SS and that may be fine for many APP students who may be interested in film, bio-tech or maritime, sports etc.

Ingraham – More subdued, you get a nice homey feeling. The school is very focused on IB. I started to feel a bit sorry for neighborhood students (if there were any) who just wanted a regular high school education because it really is all about IB. I also picked up on the bit of angst over APP students taking over IB with IBx. The principal assured parents there is place for all students; nobody is getting turned away from IB offerings.

The IB program is great, there is no doubt that it prepares you for college and looks good on the transcript. The students love the program and all emphasize time management as the key to success. I do not think many students earn the full IB diploma and honestly don’t think that is a problem when applying to colleges, if you have IB classes on the transcript.

They really don’t offer anything much outside of IB/IBx, a technology program, an automotive program, and music. I got the sense that IB students pick classes like Psychology or a second science as an electives versus the arts. (Ballard has a lot of art strands to choose from).

I think both schools are really good choices and recommend choosing the school that your student will be happy getting up and going to every day, even if it is not your first choice. A happy student will be a successful student.

LotteLenya said...

Not using my real name because it’s unusual and recognizable and I’d like to have been Lotte Lenya.

I’m totally new to this forum and to the “APP community” so will probably bug you with my ignorance, but I’d really like some help.

I just came from the Ingraham student tour and have questions about the APP program there - not about how it works, but how one gets in.

I understand that APP kids can continue into the APP-IB program without taking a test. However, it seems that a non-APP student may now test in to high school APP. This did not used to be the case. Garfield was the feeder school, but was not specifically APP, correct? We’re looking at Garfield now (with reservations) because that’s how we thought things still worked.

Can anyone tell me when they started qualifying high school students? Last year or this? Or a zillion years ago? Also, can anyone tell me why I hadn’t heard about it? Also, can anyone tell me why the deadlines are so early in the year, especially as this is - I think - so new and parents (like me) are unlikely to have known about it in October before they’ve even begun seriously looking at schools?

My son just missed APP by a couple of achievement points in 1st grade. We didn’t challenge because we’d just moved from the East Coast and didn’t know jack about this system - though we ended up loving his school.

We’ve applied to private schools because he needs a greater challenge. Now I think the Ingraham APP-IB looks great for him (and won’t murder us financially), but I guess it’s too late for him even to try to qualify, which makes me mad.

I’ve sent an e-mail to the APP office, but it would be lovely to hear from any of you.

Thanks so much.

BTW, he was privately tested last year and would have tested in according to those results.

Anonymous said...

To LotteLenya:
Try to talk to Mr Martin Floe, the Ingraham Principal. I am sure he will answer for most of your questions in a very positive way. Also, there is an IBX night (for APP students and parents) tonight at 7pm in the Library, the IB counselors will be there.
HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

I am pretty sure you need to either be a current APP student or go have gone through the APP testing and qualified to select IBx for next year. However, math placement seems open ended - and did you note how few students raised their hands when asked if they started in Alg II?

So if you find that your student won't be allowed into IBx - but think that the IB program overall is a good fit then go for it.

The IB program is well established and has a clear pathway.

THe IBx program still does not clarify what they are going to do with all those IBxers come senior year.

LotteLenya said...

Thanks.

I do know about the event tonight. I wasn’t going to be able to go, but I’m now thinking of doing some gymnastics to get there.

I very much like IB. It’s well established and quite successful in MN where I grew up. My older son attended an international school and I was impressed by the level at which the students worked, so I’m interested in IB regardless of the APP component.

I knew there was an APP info night, but assumed it was just for incoming APP students - that is, students coming from the APP program. I didn’t look into it enough, I guess, to realize there’s an actual APP track there now. Having just figured that out today means we’ve missed all the deadlines - except for appeal which is in two days.

Well, this is my second round of high school touring and I think I thought I knew more than I do… obviously. Things have changed. Ingraham was considered to be kind of an undesirable grungy little school begging for students just three years ago (even though I liked IB, it wasn’t right for my older son). And there was no APP/IB option. Can’t keep up with the pace of public school change.

I’ll inquire with the APP office and with Principal Floe if necessary.

Thanks again.

Anonymous said...

Re: The Senior Year, look to the program in Bellevue at Interlake (If I recall correctly?). The Ingraham IBx program is modeled after it, and those kids can take college courses, intern with companies, do independent study, etc. Lots and lots of really cool stuff being done by kids across the lake, and anticipated to be made available to IHS IB students too. But, as with anything APP, get on it and stay on it, if you want it to happen.
C&CsDad

Anonymous said...

Ingraham has come a long way in a short time. One thing I like about the NSAP is that it makes it harder for people to avoid their neighborhood school, which forces parents, teachers and administrators to deal with systemic problems that used to be avoided by simply switching schools. Not long ago, everyone wanted Garfield, Roosevelt, or Ballard. Now, they are happy with Hale, Ingraham, Sealth, and WS and Franklin are improving as well. RB and Cleveland are holding steady and hanging tough, but each faces difficulties far beyond what challenge other schools. Hopefully as other formerly "undesirable" schools adapt to serve their communities well, Cleveland and RB can finally get the support, attention and resources they need to make them first choices for the kids near them as well. In a city this wealthy, glitzy, computer literate and well-read, there should be no neighborhood High School parents want to avoid.
C&CsDad

Anonymous said...

Ingrahan vs. Garfield:
There was a very organized, very informative and well attended Ingraham IBX night tonight. The principal, the IB coordinator, some teachers, students and even Dr Robert Vaughan showed up and gave little talks, and nice presentations with slides. And in the end everybody answered the countless questions even as late as 9 15pm (while the official program ended at 8 30pm).
The slides were prepared in a way that we received meaningful information on the IB and on the IBX program and in the end, there was a comparison between the AP and IB programs. Since many parents asked about this Guy Thomas promised to put the slides on the Ingraham website. It is worthwhile to check it out even if you consider GHS. Thank you, Ingraham, you did an outstanding job (again).
HIMS mom

protected static said...

A couple of folks have asked about what happens if you're an APP family that selects something other than Garfield but then don't get in.

According to Dr. Vaughn at Ingraham last night, you do NOT lose your Garfield assignment. Garfield is THE default school for all APP 8th graders.

Anonymous said...

@protected statistic,

is your child's access to APP at Garfield protected even if they are APP qualified kids who up until high school have elected to remain in a neighborhood Spectrum MS?

Thanks

Anonymous said...

No, If your child did not come from APP at Hamilton or Washington, they do not have a default assignment to Garfield. If your child qualified this year for APP as a 8th grader & was not actually enrolled in APP last year, they can choose Ingraham IBx, not Garfield. If your child does not get in to IBx, then your default school is your reference area high school. That is where you have a guaranteed seat.

According to Bob Vaughn last night

Anonymous said...

One question for Dr Vaughan was last night: what happens if you are an APP 8th grader from HIMS or WMS who decides to go to IHS instead of Garfield (the officially assigned school) but the IBX program is full (or has more students than the the district predicted 60).
Will they accommodate more students in the IBX program this year? This was a yes or no question but there was no clear answer. Dr Vaughan said if IHS can not accommodate the incoming IBX students (which seems very unlikely according to him) the students won't loose their Garfield seats.
HIMS mom

RosieReader said...

A few random responses to comments in this thread, that weren't otherwise responded to:

There was a question about whether IB requires a visual art of some sort, and would performers have to skip a semester of performance to take it. The answer is no.

2/20 @ 1:17 -- actually, lots of kids try to complete the full IB diploma. In fact about 50 students from this years' senior class are full IB diploma candidates.

Finally, I'll try to remember to remind Guy to find someone to put the slides up on the Ingraham website.

Anonymous said...

"2/20 @ 1:17 -- actually, lots of kids try to complete the full IB diploma. In fact about 50 students from this years' senior class are full IB diploma candidates"

Yes, I understand that many students become IB candidates, but I didn't get the sense that many earn the IB diploma.

In otherwords, of these 50 current IB candidates, how many will receive the IB diploma?

Or in 2012 how many candidites where there and how many diplomas were earned.

I think that would be an interesting stat to know.

Anonymous said...

Ingraham has a 79% pass rate for the diploma, which is 1% under the 80% world wide pass rate for IB, according to the IBx presentation last night.

Anonymous said...

SOME ADDITIONAL FACTS:
Ingraham has A 5 YEAR AVERAGE of 79% pass rate for the diploma, which is 1% under the 80% world wide (more than 3,000 schools) pass rate for IB, according to the IBx presentation last night.
IT WENT TO 70-90% WITH THE LOWEST RATE OF 69% LAST YEAR.
It would be interesting to know the reason for this lower number.

Anonymous said...

IB program - numbers
Please note the previously listed passing rates for the IB diploma are before APP (IBX). The first APP cohort will take their IB exams at the end of this year, so they are still only IB diploma candidates.

Anonymous said...

Questions about IB math,

So I looked at the IB math HL class descriptions. then I looked at the UW math credit given for IB HL math compared to AP math. I was surprised.

2 years of IB HL math gets you one quarter of college calculus credit if you get a 7 on the exam. If you get lower than a 7 you get only precalculus credit.

2 years of AP Calculus math gets you 3 quarters of college calculus credit or more if you score higher.

Is that because IB math spends more time truly mastering basic math skills than AP does, or is it more of a survey course that touches on too many subjects to go deeply into any of them?

Deciding on HS

Anonymous said...

If a child is app qualified and enrolled in spectrum in middle school, what happens with high school assignment? Would he be assigned to Garfield? If he chose Garfield during open enrollment, would he be guaranteed admission there? Would he be treated the same as newly app qualified kids applying to ibx?
I know students who are app qualified and enrolled in alo or spectrum in elementary school retain their status for middle school, but I'm not sure what happens for high school.

Anonymous said...

Children who are in spectrum middle school programs do not maintain APP qualifications. They must re qualify to gain access to APP. If they re qualify in 8th grade but have not been enrolled in APP program, then they do not have guarantee assignment to Garfield. They can try to get in during open enrollment but they will have the gen ed tie-breakers just like everyone else.

They can apply to IBx. They have a guaranteed assignment to their reference school.

Maureen said...

Deciding, someone else may be able to answer this better than I, but I'm guessing that IB Math HL spends more time on Statistics than AP Calc A/B and B/C Math HL Overview).

My older kid took AP A/B and B/C (at RHS)and the exams and now can be placed into multivariate calc in college (3rd semester of the sequence). Credit isn't particularly meaningful for him since he's at a private college that doesn't have a lot of core requirements. He will have to take a stats course if he continues in his major and I sort of wish he had more of a background in Stats.

Re. IBx and Math, my thought is that upper level Calc will be one of the easier college level classes to pick up for that final senior year (and those classes will move MUCH more quickly than A/B B/C does). So if you have a math oriented kid, they can still place into multivariate/DifEq whatever when they go to college.

Also, IB students can still take the AP exams and use the scores to place out or get credit for college classes. They may have to do some self studying if there are gaps in the material.

Speaking as the parent of a college freshman, the AP and Running Start credits seem like a great thing, and I think they are a huge money saver for kids who want to get through a state school or community college quickly. For students who are set on taking four years, especially at a private school, the AP credits may get you placement into a higher level class (*) or get you out of a distribution requirement (though those are rarer than they used to be) but are unlikely to save time or money.

(*) I know Whitman, for example, laughs at AP Physics and makes you take intro anyway.

hschinske said...

HL math is widely regarded as more difficult in terms of problem-solving ability than the AP calculus sequence (which suggests to me that depth is not being sacrificed for breadth). I think it does cover somewhat less of the straight calculus sequence, but I would expect a student who did well in HL math to be extremely well prepared for college math.

Helen Schinske

Happy IHS Parent said...

I am the parent of a freshman at Ingraham. We are all really happy with his choice. I would go so far as to say this is the first year my son has been happy with 99% of his school experience since Lowell. A couple of thoughts on Ingraham and IBX.

1) It does follow a pretty prescribed schedule of courses
2) Geography- it takes us 20 minutes from Ballard; the yellow bus service is great
3) I am really pleased with all of the teachers and classes my son is in. They are great- good teachers, responsive, and genuinely seem to like teaching and being at Ingraham
4) I don't think this is a program just for kids interested in the Humanities, their science and math classes are high caliber
5) The APP kids are in classes with lots of other kids in language and electives (music). This has helped my son meet kids from different grades and the older kids seem to be pretty inclusive of the freshman
6) I spent a lot of time on Interlake's (the Eastside IB school) site when we were deciding. This is the only option for Bellevue's "gifted" high school students and follows the same format as IBX. Their program has been around for a while and their website has lots of information. The list of colleges the kids were getting into was equivalent to the list supplied at GHS. Below is the link to Interlake's site if you are interested. Good luck - both are good choices.
https://myportal.bsd405.org/personal/obyrnem/interlakeIB/default.aspx

APPIBXStudent said...

If anyone has any questions about the IBX program or the Garfield program, to some extent, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Anonymous said...

With regard to college credit for IB classes and AP classes, the whole point of AP (Advanced Placement) was to offer university level courses to high school students and for them to attain college credit for the work. The IB was designed to provide a university prep education that would be accepted world-wide. I'm not sure when IB tests were accepted for credit. Anyone can take an AP test, even without taking an AP course. IB exams can only be taken by a student taking the course. Moreover, the IB class has other assessments that are designed not to duplicate the exam assessment.

tami

Anonymous said...

Tami,
IB classes can receive college credit... Just like AP, but IB is recognized internationally.

Just Sayin'

RosieReader said...

Just to clarify, colleges vary in their treatment of IB courses in terms of awarding credit, just as colleges vary in their treatment of AP. If you really want to understand this issue, then I would suggest you try to figure out how each would be handled at 4 or 5 colleges you think would be likely choices for your student. Yes, I know it's hard to predict where an 8th grader may decide s/he wants to go to college, but at the very least you can look into where you would like to see him/her wind up.

Anonymous said...

@Just Sayin' - It's true that some universities accept a high score (6/7) on an IB exam for credit. Although, as RosieReader and Maureen pointed out, not all colleges accept AP or IB for credit.

My point is that the IB and AP were not designed for the same purpose. IB has designed its assessments (internal assessments, portfolio work during the course) to insure that the quality of instruction and assessments throughout the class are the same throughout the international program, not just that a 6 score on an IB exam taken in Seattle is the same as a 6 score on the same exam taken in Dubai.

AP doesn't insist on training of instructors, or even taking an AP course. An AP exam is open to anyone who wishes to register.

Anonymous said...

@Just Sayin' that comment was from me - tami

Nelly said...

We are far from both Ingraham and Garfield. Is there school bus service to both of these schools? My child is currently bussed to Hamilton. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

To Nelly:
There are currently yellow bus services to Ingraham in the morning from the different part of the city. But I am not sure if they will provide that next year. You could ask Transportation...
HIMS mom

Anonymous said...

According to the district, the yellow bus service will be the same next year to Ingraham. The routes are on the web site.
Parent

Anonymous said...

How hard is it to join the APP pathway in HS? (It'd have to be Ingraham, as you must be in APP in 8th grade to go to Garfield.) We've got math more than covered at the neighborhood school. But she wouldn't have the science or the history that she'd get at HIMS.

How big a hinderance is this?

How much difference b/t taking an AP, college prep series of courses at Ballard vs. Ingraham? My neighbor's kid did so and had some really tough classes, worked hard with a group of friends in the same classes, all got into good colleges and all feel very well prepared for college.

Maybe more kids are like minded at the APP high schools, but is it really so different if you choose courses wisely at Ballard?

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Regarding previous question, I know that she'd have to re-test in. I am more curious about how behind she'd be.
Thanks

Anonymous said...

Math is by ability, and the history sequence at HIMS may be changing for next year's APP students (no more World History in 8th grade, supposedly it will be US History and WA State History in 8th grade).

The biggest difference would probably be science. High school level classes start in 7th grade with Physical Science, then continue in 8th grade with Biology. If a student is coming from APP elementary, much of the middle school science would be a repeat from elementary (they do some of the middle school science units in 4th and 5th grade).

Anonymous said...

The promised Ingraham - Garfield (or IBX - AP) program comparison:
http://ingrahamhs.seattleschools.org/modules/cms/pages.phtml?pageid=232541&sessionid=c46dac78f8da3c802e699aa1fc3e5476&sessionid=c46dac78f8da3c802e699aa1fc3e5476
Thank you

Anonymous said...

The Ingraham shuttle service home page:
http://ingrahamhs.seattleschools.org/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/1708844/File/Ingraham%20Shuttles.pdf?sessionid=c46dac78f8da3c802e699aa1fc3e5476

Anonymous said...

Just to note, the APP 8th grade history classes at both Hamilton and Washington have been changed to US History (with Washington State History)for 2013-2014. The first half of Ways of the World (as a prep for AP World in 9th Grade) will no longer be covered.

Anonymous said...

"Just to note, the APP 8th grade history classes at both Hamilton and Washington have been changed to US History (with Washington State History)for 2013-2014. The first half of Ways of the World (as a prep for AP World in 9th Grade) will no longer be covered."

Can someone explain the practical impact of this change? Was US History / WA State History not previously covered? Is Ways of the World necessary as prep before AP World History in 9th grade?

I have been hearing about this potential change (sounds from the previous poster that it is a done deal), but I don't understand the ramifications, if any.

Thanks,
Parent of HIMS 7th grader

Anonymous said...

I looked at the enrollment form for choice seats. It says, Ingraham APP 9-11 grade. In the IBX program kids finish their graduation requirements in 11th grade, according to the IB coordinator at Ingraham. So why is the district willing to pay for another year of high school for those kids? Why should I believe that SPS will not cut that funding for 4th year students?

-Wondering about IBx

Anonymous said...

My understanding of the history change:

3-4 years ago, they pushed what was 9th grade history at Garfield down to 8th grade. This allowed for an extra year of history in high school, or maybe another class? The cohort then started AP World History in 9th grade.

Ingraham is supposedly not going to do AP World History for the APP IBX 9th graders next year, but instead offer something that is more in line with the IB program. There was then no need for 8th graders to take the World History in 8th grade.

Since our child's coverage of US History has been almost nil in elementary APP, we see it as a postive that they will be covering US History in 8th grade. I'm not sure how it impacts class choices in high school should our child choose Garfield. I don't fully understand the ramifications myself.

Charlie Mas said...

When my eldest daughter was in the 8th grade of APP at Washington, she and a few of her APP classmates chose The NOVA Project for high school. NOVA was a great choice for her and she graduated from that school last year.

NOVA isn't for everyone, but it was the right choice for her. She is self-managing and self-directed. NOVA allows students to pursue their passions and provides them with support all the way. It allows the students a tremendous amount of autonomy and control over their education, it allows them to work on projects until they have achieved real mastery of the topic, rather than just familiarity, and it allows them to work in service to ideas bigger than themselves. This combination provides students with a lot of motivation and they go on to achieve some amazing things.

NOVA has some of the highest average SAT scores in the district.

Personally, I would like to see the District recognize more APP pathways than Garfield and Ingraham IBX. I think NOVA, Cleveland STEM, and Sealth IB should also be recognized.

Maureen said...

Charlie, can you explain why you think SPS should 'recognize' more schools as 'APP pathways?' APP eligible kids are currently able to request any of those schools (and at Nova and Cleveland have the same chance as anyone on the city. At Sealth they are on equal footing with anyone from their reference area.) Are you saying that APP enrolled students should have guaranteed seats and/or a self contained cohort at those schools?

Charlie Mas said...

Thanks for asking Maureen.

No, I don't think APP students should have guaranteed seats or a self contained cohort at those schools or any high schools.

The only thing that makes Garfield an APP site is the presence of the cohort and the pointed awareness that the school has a duty to serve these students. There are no APP classes or classes that other schools don't have.

That same dynamic can be created at Sealth, STEM, and NOVA. The students can have a cohort and the school can have a special awareness of their responsibility to serve the students.

In addition, it would legitimize the school programs for families. That part may be just marketing, but it has an effect.

Maureen said...

Charlie, Thank you for clarifying.