Friday, November 1, 2013

Open thread

Discuss whatever you like!

Update: This thread is now dominated by discussion of the SNAPP PTA. Feel free to keep discussing that here, we can make this thread about that, and I'll start another open thread.


Anonymous said...

For anyone who needs them, MAP scores are posted.


Anonymous said...

I was just looking at MSP results for APP @ Lincoln. I believe it is the first time that scores are available for APP students only. I was expecting 100% passing rate across all grades AND the highest scores (98th percentile), and was surprised that it isn't the case. The MSP is a relatively easy test, at least it should be so for students covering material --at least-- 2 years ahead. Should we be worried that APP kids @ Lincoln (can't extrapolate to other schools since there's no data) are not being taught the material that is supposed to be covered? Are all those claims that "many" in APP really should be in a Spectrum program? Is it just another test to dismiss because students don't take it seriously?


Old Timer said...

Intrigued --

Lowell scores reflected APP-only kids for many years (they were co-housed only with a great Spec Ed program, but those students did not generally take the tests), and it never had 100%, either. Kids have bad days, some 2e kids' abilities are not always reflected in this test. I think it says more about the noise in testing data that the suitability of these kids for APP.

Old Timer

Anonymous said...

MSP pass rates for 2012-13

Grade Reading Math

3rd: 99.3% 99.3%
4th: 99.3% 99.3% (Writing 92.5%)
5th: 100% 100% (Science 100%)

I'm not sure what the issue is. Anecdotally, my child's scores dropped with the switch to the online version. My child disliked having to key in responses for the math portion and did not find it easy to read passages on the computer screen (same issue when doing MAP). Also, 98th percentile is not necessarily passing with a 98%. Percentile ranks are tabulated on the OSPI website, though this year's statistics may not have been posted yet.

I'd say the writing scores (56.7% passed at a level 4) show a weakness in the writing curriculum, but this is true district wide, not just for APP.

Anonymous said...

So, what private middle schools do a good job meeting the needs of kids who've been in elementary APP?

I know about some of the popular places, like Lakeside, Bush, Northwest, but am wondering if there are any smaller hidden gems out there that we should be looking at.


--hopeful private school parent

Anonymous said...

I would recommend Seattle Country Day as the only private school that is stated "for gifted children". I am sure they are the happy ones as they will get all the APP students next year who will flee SPS's chaos (and have the financial background). We toured the school a couple of years ago and liked it a lot, but it's too late for us next year as it is K-8.
Good luck!

Anonymous said...

FYI - Garfield and WMS consistently get students transferring in from Bush due to less than challenging academics.

I would not classify them as being one of the private schools that challenge gifted kids.

-GHS Parent

Anonymous said...

I toured Bush recently and was told point blank by the head of school that Bush is not a program that can accommodate advanced learners.

Anonymous said...

That might be true for middle school, but I just came back from Bush's high school open house and all the teachers indicated that students are placed in classes based on what work they have completed in middle school--so kids would go straight to chemistry in 9th grade rather than biology. Language is also skill-based placement and I'd assume math is as well.

They give them placement tests at the beginning of the year and also retain the ability to move a student up or down within the first few weeks of the year.

Anonymous said...

There have been several APP families that went to Bush from either Washington or HIMS and have been quite happy. They can definitely accommodate. Math is quite strong there at the HS level. Our experience is that 6th grade anywhere is a bit of a repeat for APP kids, but by high school, the good private schools are very challenging. the small class size and highly specialized teachers really offer something different than a big public HS. That isn't to say public is better or worse- depends on your kid and what they will choose to get out of it.

Open mind

Anonymous said...

Private schools like a Bush or Lakeside do things differently. Lakeside will tell you they don't do AL either and don't advertise as such. SCDS advertises AL and requires the IQ testing. But guess where the kids apply for HS? The truly gifted who can't get their needs met at the public or private secondary school are off to university early entrance program. So my 6th grader may be able to handle algebra easily enough, but not physics or calculus. I also discover algebra classes are not equal.

Anonymous said...

I don't feel like I heard any new information about the proposal for APP in West Seattle from the board meeting last night. In fact I was a bit baffled that Marty McClaren really didn't seem to have much of anything to say about West Seattle at all. Any updates?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if I would be able to visit Lincoln with my child during school hours? Would it be OK to sign in at the office as a visitor? (To clarify, we do not attend Lincoln, so we would both be visitors).


Anonymous said...

to Anon at 1:22 pm - I would suggest emailing the principal, Rina Geohagen, or calling the office and asking them. Their contact info is on the Seattle Schools website (go to schools and pick APP@Lincoln).


Anonymous said...

Melissa Westbrook wrote:
"Apparently, Michael DeBell seems to think that the figure of 270 is some kind of cap for APP at JAMS. He said that the original ALTF said this in our report but that was a floor size to create the cohort. But another staff person said that DeBell knows that's the floor but he seems to want a cap number for any given school. That might be true but it should not be the lowest number possible. He may be using this for any amendment he has on JAMS."

We are not on SNAPP facebook as we are at our neighborhood school hoping to go to APP middle next fall. Is the APP community mobilizing? I am very concerned but don't know what to advocate for.

Lost in 5th grade

Anonymous said...

Sadly, don't put your faith in any advocacy from SNAPP. They vacillate between magical thinking and shooting themselves in the foot.

To put this in context, the PTSA president is now putting all her faith in either the FACMAC recommendations being followed or Michael DeBell's ammendment passing but somehow in a more palatable form. This is despite having no leverage with him and not taking into account the fact he's a lame duck member of the minority coalition.

Frankly, you should advocate directly for whatever makes the most sense to you.

- realpolitik

ln said...

I don't agree, realpolitik. If you tell people to advocate for what works best, we will end-up with the 3-way split since the Board and SPS will say we don't agree as a community.

Lost in 5th grade, assuming you are in QA/Mag or north of the ship canal, the Lincoln PTA is now recommending advocating for a 2-way split between Wilson Pacific and Hamilton. Until WP opens in 2017, they say we should ask to be "annexed" at Lincoln and not be split until then.

If you live South, I am not sure what you should advocate for, but I think all APP at Washington. Someone correct me if I am wrong!! Just trying to help.

Personally, since I am in the north-end, I am also adding if the annex doesn't work, keep the split to a 2-way at most!!!

Anonymous said...

Thanks, ln. I am north and I appreciate the feedback, since I'm wary of adding to the "noise" without purpose.

Lost in 5th

ln said...

Welcome to APP madness, lost in 5th. It helps the cause, jives with the PTA message and has the smallest impact on neighborhood kids, if you advocate for a 2-way split. Just say no to 3-way! HA!

Anonymous said...

What, no entropy? Just kidding. In with in!

love the quiet

Anonymous said...

The lack of ANY meaningful communication between APP-eligible but not enrolled & current Lincoln families is a huge gripe with me. I am on the SNAPP facebook page, but have a kid in my neighborhood school as well that I plan on moving over for MS, and I find the attitude on there very dismissive twds families like mine.

Despite numbers that CLEARLY support the argument that many new families join at MS (100+ kids joined for 6th grade this year at Hamilton, for example), folks there continue to make comments about how it's not that big a bump (one saying "maybe 30 kids" and then never acknowledging the huge difference between her erroneous assumption - one that was used to support other arguments - and reality), and persist in arguing that the numbers that are being used for MS predictions are too high, despite a HUGE rising group of kids on site at their own school, all at a time that MANY families have opted out of elementary APP because of all this chaos. And ALL of this takes place without any meaningful attempt to reach out to the families that will be joining at MS. As someone with multiple kids, all qualifying but not all attending, it has been very interesting to read the debate, and have to say that much of it does not reflect well on SNAPP> honestly, much of it fits the elitist stereotypes people complain about... Often it reads like the only families that "matter" to the discussion are currently enrolled families, with little if any respect for those who have opted for ALO, etc. Maybe that stems from some weird survivor/shared pain sense of bonding, but it plays badly...

- Playing both sides of the field...

Anonymous said...

PS - Forgot to add, in my experience Lincoln/Rita will NOT let you tour during the year, only during the open enrollment open house for kids who are eligible.

Anonymous said...

Playing both sides-if you are simply going to rely on the SNAPP page for info, you are not going to be fully informed. And frankly, communication on a media site does not fairly or fully represent SNAPP. I was pleasantly surprised by the PTA chat this morning and worth taking time from work to go. I encourage you to communicate directly with PTA leadership if you have these concerns and issues. I think you will see that SNAPP leadership currently does think beyond what is simply best for any one group of kids. In addition, the most vocal on the FB page is not wholly reflective of SNAPP. As someone who doesn't feel represented or reached out to, you should know that. There is nothing to prevent you from asking these questions or trying to work with SNAPP. Don't just leave it to someone else to do the work for you. I say this because I felt similarly to you not long ago but having face to face conversation can make a difference in perception.

Anonymous said...

I was also at the PTA chat yesterday morning, and I was impressed with our president and the two women speaking. They struck me as balanced, smart and hardworking. I got the sense that whatever way the boundaries go, we have these incredibly industrious and smart people (mostly women, of course) who are ready to roll up their sleeves and get to work. Not being much of a volunteer, I feel pretty lucky to have so many people giving their time, energy and talent to this often thankless work.

Anonymous said...

Personally, I'd like to see SNAPP either change it's name to something Lincoln and/or elementary specific, or change its mission and membership to encompass middle school APP. The current name makes it sound like they represent the views of all the north end APP families, when in reality they are a school PTSA. They don't make efforts to engage HIMS or incoming APP families, so when they speak out on APP issues that affect all it often comes off as self-serving. I am glad for the work they do, but would like to see more transparency about who they represent. With the upcoming changes that may impact APP, perhaps this will be a good time to rethink the name and/or mission.

Anonymous said...

Please people, HIMS is not just APP. It's a community composed of students first, programs second. Nor are all HIMS APP parents are all of the same mindset either. Also this persistent focus on north end while ignoring southenders isn't exactly showing a welcoming, non self-serving attitude.

Anonymous said...

Playing both sides - I also have a kid who joined APP in middle school - as well as a younger kid at Lincoln. The District projections for middle school are way too high. They start with the current middle school APP population - which includes both those who went to Lowell/Lincoln as well those who joined in middle school. However, the District then assumes that middle school APP will grow by 9% each and every year for the next 9 years. In other words, they are assuming middle school APP will almost double. This is much higher than the District's assumptions for south-end APP or north elementary APP or for the District as a whole. It is magical thinking. Or ridiculous thinking. But it's the basis for the District then proposing they can split north middle school APP across 3 different middle schools - which I think will be a disaster.

So it's not that elementary kids who aren't at APP yet aren't included. They are. But the District is proposing some ridiculously high growth rates just for north APP.


Anonymous said...

I have two children at Lincoln but am unable to find info on the SNAPP Facebook page. Anyone know how I can join?
--Lincoln mom

Anonymous said...

You should be able to search SNAPP or Seattle North APPand ask to join the group. You'll have to have someone vouch that you are a current Lincoln Family.

Anonymous said...

Just a couple comments:
1. I'm a north ended so can't really speak to the south end. That's just how it is. It doesn't mean I don't care but I'm not going to speak for them when I don't know much. Glad to support all of APP however I can, though.
2. HIMS is not just APP but to the extent possible, HIMS has been involved or looped in with regards to possible effects if a Lincoln/Hamikton annex were to happen. At the PTA chat, HIMS PTA pres. was there. I think it's a testament to leadership that there has been coordination. So, I think it's inaccurate to assume HIMS is not involved. However, it does appear that HIMS APP parents (some) are not looking at the overall program but the short term pain or gain of their child. Understandable but disappointing.
3. Lastly, since we don't know who the incoming APP families are, it's difficult to engage them. At least, I'm not aware if how they would reach out to those families specifically. Seems like a complaint just to complain. People need to take some responsibility and not expect everything or anything handed on a plate. Reach out and get involved or stop whining.

Anonymous said...

"Whining" - "Complaining just to complain" - thanks for great examples of the dismissive attitude that I was talking about....

I truly believe the Lincoln community would be better served by reaching out - a feeling I know has been shared by others on the SNAPP page. While it may not be easy to identify the families - it IS easy to reach out to the PTA's of other schools, esp those schools that have traditionally high numbers of APP eligible kids. Everything on the SNAPP page these days is focused on making a strong campaign against the new plan for MS's; that would be MUCH easier with the support & advocacy of 100 more families. There's no reason parents couldn't reach out to their neighborhood/home schools and pass on info for a meeting, email list, etc - no reason other than an attitude that they don't need to...

As a parent of multiple kids, with ties to more than one school, it is easy to see how Lincoln insulates itself. That "preserve ourselves first" mentality may be understandable - and is certainly not shared by all - but certainly rubs others the wrong way.

You may not realize this, but MANY APP-eligible families have no idea what is going on with all of this, or don't have the historical perspective to appreciate the consequences. I *know* the families at my neighborhood school are NOT being included - and since only "current Lincoln families" are allowed on the misleadingly named SNAPP page (I wholeheartedly agree the name is bad - either make it Lincoln specific or open it to anyone with an APP designated kid), how would they learn what the Lincoln PTA is advocating on their supposed behalf???

Lynn said...

So you want the families at Lincoln to reach out to, survey and advocate for the desires of families who have chosen not to participate in APP?

Anonymous said...

I think most north APP families who have been in the program for awhile through more than one child/school have figured out that SNAPP is the name of APP @ Lincoln. It is not a literal translation of the acronym. In my experience, at middle school and high school APP is part of a comprehensive experience. At HIMS, the APP students are together for block (SS&English), but are intermingled with the rest of the students for everything else. (my experience). So, although APP families do volunteer in their area of focus, music, language immersion, etc., "APP" is below the radar in the daily life. I think middle school is short, and APP families are trying to make it through and figure out high school. Also, by the time your kid is in middle school, a lot of families have both parents employed outside the home, so there is less volunteering or advocating for the "group". It isn't much fun to have a good idea and then have to actually implement it yourself instead of saying "someone" should do this....

Anonymous said...

When comments are written totally without signatures, it is hard to know if the same person is commenting or if it is a different person. (for example the person commenting about the North focus, and the person commenting about the SNAPP name/and trying to bring in to the discussion middle school APP families and new APP families.

Personally, it is really hard to comment on an area that is not "my" area, so I don't have an idea about what is good for South APP since I am not familiar with the schools there. If we are trying to figure things out for our kid, it is not necessarily "self-serving". the blog is for helping APP families figure things out. That is the purpose of it.

Anonymous said...


There are many families who are participating in an APP level of education, just not at Lincoln. Given the chaos of the current program, can you fault them for pursuing alternatives at their neighborhood school or at a private school? Those are the kids I'm talking about here - the 100+ who join at MS - who WILL be part of the APP community directly affected by whatever SPS comes up with next...

I'm not asking "the families at Lincoln to reach out to, survey and advocate for the desires of" the those families. I'm saying it would serve SNAPP's own interests to do so... (And obviously I *am* doing this independently at my younger child's school - which is why I know that nobody is doing it through the PTA, for example.)

Playing both sides

Anonymous said...

Sorry, that was me on Nov 9 at 7:42 commenting re: the lack of clarity of SNAPP's name and focus. Apparently I forgot to sign, but it looks like commenters such as Anon on November 11, 2013 at 1:44 AM and Playing Both Sides feel similarly.

Here's a genuine question: Is SNAPP the voice of Seattle North End APP, or the voice of Lincoln APP? Or does SNAPP consider itself to somehow be both? I would like to see SNAPP pick one discrete mission, and be clear about it. What we have now, however, seems to be a situation in which SNAPP is it trying to have it both ways--presenting itself as the former, but advocating from the interest base of the the latter.

As has been noted before, the reality is that there is a large group of kids (100+) that enter APP at middle school. There's also, obviously, also a group of APP 5th graders currently at Lincoln, although I don't know how many. For argument sake, let's say there are 100 at Lincoln, too--in which case middle school APP would be comprised of about half kids from elementary APP and half kids new to APP. When SNAPP makes its recommendations on behalf of what "Seattle North APP" families want regarding middle school APP, it should be clear that this is a reference to current Lincoln families only! To dismiss the interests and priorities of those who will comprise about half the APP middle school cohort is fine, if that's the route you want to go, but please don't disguise that fact in your recommendations. Either speak for Lincoln only, or find a way to engage those incoming middle school families--who very well might have differing opinions than current SNAPP members. (And really, how hard would it be to reach out to incoming north end middle school APP families? You could send a blanket email to local PTSAs, asking them to post an announcement in their newsletter. You could post something on this blog, where lots of hybrid gen ed/APP families and APP-interested families come as well. To instead shoot down unsupportive comments with contradictory statements about how these families should reach out to SNAPP themselves, while noting that you have to be a Lincoln family to access the website, comes across as another example of the dismissive attitude toward those not already part of APP. )


Lynn said...

Here's some information that might be helpful:

Current APP participation.

Current Spectrum participation (including a count of APP-eligible students.)

Current ALO participation (including a count of APP-eligible students.)

There are 91 APP-eligible 5th graders district-wide who could be newly enrolled in APP next fall. There are also the students who will test in this fall of course - but this is a start. The highest concentration is at Laurelhurst (30). No other school has more than nine students. If you want to increase the number of families advocating for APP in the north end, you just have to talk to Laurelhurst.

Anonymous said...

Hi HIMSmom,
I agree with you that the name SNAPP is confusing, but it is a name that is somehow snappier than APP @ Lincoln PTA. I think a lot of organizations are still on the learning curve on how to utilize Facebook pages for their organization.

Anonymous said...

A little history for those confused about SNAPP. When North-end APP was yanked out of Lowell and moved to Lincoln, they were "Lowell at Lincoln"--confusing and a mouthful.

There was a rush to form a new PTA and not knowing the ultimate fate of the students in the Lincoln building (sound familiar?) a decision was made to create a somewhat generic sounding PTA name that wasn't tied to a school. This would allow for potential future splits, wider advocacy and it was an easy name.

Fast forward two+ years and APP@Lincoln is their own school and will most likely go to WP as a single unit. If the name is changed to encompass where they are today (APP@Lincoln), what happens when they move to WP? What happens if they are split? No guarantees.

If you'd like the SNAPP board to delineate their mission more, go for it. But to sit and kvetch because the name isn't descriptive enough, please think about how/why it got started in the first place.


Anonymous said...

Thanks Lynn, that chart is very useful. I would just add that those numbers do NOT include people who tested and then opted either into private schools or into something like the Shoreline gifted program (for example). But still very useful for providing some context. Selfishly, it's nice to see my kid won't be the only one joining at MS. (And interesting to note that there is one more APP kid at his school in his grade than I thought.)

Also opting in at MS

Anonymous said...

Lynn, thanks for those documents.

One clarification, though. I think the AHG designation is APP (academically highly gifted) and AG is Spectrum (academically gifted).

In that case, Laurelhurst has 30 Spectrum-eligible kids and 4 APP-eligible kids in 5th grade this year. Right?

(and wouldn't it be nice if SPS got in the habit of defining acronyms and initialisms in their documents?!)


Anonymous said...

Re: the name "SNAPP". When the elementary school APP kids were unceremoniously booted out of Lowell on Capital Hill (in JUNE!), the community had very little time to gather our stuff and hightail it to Lincoln. At the time, there was no certainty (sound familiar) as to how long we would be at Lincoln, if were truly "Lowell @ Lincoln", if we had another name, etc. The PTA chose a somewhat descriptive (but not too much) name "Seattle North APP - SNAPP" to get us up and running. In hindsight, sure, it shoud have have probably been SNEAPP - Seattle North Elementary APP - but I can forgive them. They were trying to move the whole cohort over the summer!
In the fall, we still didn't have an official name, and the next fall we didn't either. Finally, this year, it seems we are officially designated APP@Lincoln.
Many of you are right. We should probably change the name. But does it make sense to change it now, only to probably change it in the fall when we do finally know where we land (fingers crossed - WP)?
I for one would rather the SNAPP community focus on sorting through this capacity mess and not worry about the name SNAPP.
They have never claimed to be representing "all north Seattle APP". SPS doesn't think they do, the SPS Board doesn't think they do.

Lynn said...

persnickety - oops! You're right about the APP/Spectrum numbers at Laurelhurst.

Also Opting In - but students attending private schools or Shoreline schools do not maintain their eligibility. They may or may not test in again in the 5th grade.

Anonymous said...

Bryant has the most APP kids qualified but staying.

Anonymous said...


How about the WPerSNAPPers?


Anonymous said...

As far as changing the name, at this point in the game it really is such a smaller detail in the bigger picture of what we're all dealing with. I agree that in hindsight it would have been good to have a more specific name. But the PTA and parents at the time were given a real crummy deal. To be correct, we all found out the day after school got out that our 4th and 5th grade APP students were getting booted out of their home. We fought the school district for two weeks to move none or all grades out. So it really wasn't until the very end of June/beginning of July that we found out that all 1st-5th grades were being kicked out. My son didn't get to say goodbye to his school, many of the staff that stayed at Lowell, and his friends in the Special Ed classes. The last day of school that year really was his last day of school as a Lowell Dragon. Great closure.

The teachers, parents, admin, and PTA spent the entire summer turning the Lincoln space into an elementary school. It had been an interim building for several area high school and a middle school so it was pretty trashed and run down. Our teachers were not allowed to take a single bookcase, table, chair, etc. from the Lowell building. They were made to pick through remnant furniture from storage rooms that the interim-housed high schools had left behind. Picture six foot tall bookcases, high school desks an chairs for 6 year olds, furniture covered in gum and had profanity written/etched on it. No playground, no grass, no field, to real recess space. It was teamwork and a whole lot of elbow grease that got things fairly in order by September. We had one very dedicated SPS staff member who also spent a good majority of her summer helping us to make Lincoln a home - shout out to the AMAZING Brandy Fox!!!

In the midst of all of this chaos, our hard working PTA came up with the name "SNAPP." It fit, it worked, and it gave our kids an identity. Since that time, our PTA and families have asked district officials to give us a real school name. Not SNAPP, not Lowell at Lincoln, not APP at Lincoln. We've begged to be given the name Wilson Pacific Elementary since that's where the district says our students will eventually be going. We've been denied repeatedly.

So my son has a t-shirt from his neighborhood school (Kindergarten), 1st grade (Lowell Elementary), Lowell at Lincoln (2nd grade), no shirt for 3rd grade because no one knew if we were still Lowell at Lincoln or APP at Lincoln, no shirt for 4th grade now because we're not sure if maybe this year they will allow us to be Wilson Pacific Elem. or just APP at Lincoln.

For now, SNAPP is what we are called. I'm sure things will change at some point again and hopefully we'll have a name that will be more specific and permanent to our community. The intention of SNAPP has never been to exclude anyone. We're just a bunch of parents that have been trying to cobble together a good school for our kids in the midst of a lot of challenges. If there is anyone to blame for not reaching out to families who have chosen not to enroll in APP at Lincoln and to inform them of upcoming changes, it is the Advanced Learning Department and the District. I believe the school district should be getting this information out to all schools so they can be informing their APP qualified families. I certainly wish we had unlimited parent resources to do outreach and such, but we're trying out best to hold down the fort at our school.

We have a child who also attends Hamilton. Glad to hear that you'll be joining us there. It's a good school and we've been happy there for the most part.


Anonymous said...

Valid point, Lynn - but honestly, can't imagine that a kid who tested in once, then went to private school or a gifted program, and took the test again, would NOT qualify a second time... And my point was simply that - you can't see those numbers as the absolute max, just a ballpark...

Also opting in

Anonymous said...

It's true that there are more students in elementaries that don't show up on the eligibility lists linked to by Lynn. Some schools don't have ALO or spectrum program, but have students who've tested into advanced learning and not left their neighborhood school. In the north end, for instance, both Bagley and John Stanford don't have ALO or spectum (obviously). I'm not sure what other schools don't have ALO. JSIS and Balgey both have other programs (montessori and lang. immersion), so don't have ALO. However, both schools always have kids join APP in middle school.
more info

Anonymous said...

I think we all agree that the SNAPP folks did a phenomenal job getting the school up and running quickly, and I certainly didn't mean to make it sound like the name itself if the most important thing--especially at this time of crazymaking! I just wanted to convey that I often hear SNAPP's name out there as the voice of north end APP--whether intentional or not--and I don't feel it really represents all the groups. Perhaps when we're talking about APP elementary issues it's not so striking, but when the issue at hand is middle school, it feels very different. What's best for Lincoln's families is not necessarily best for those coming from other elementary programs. It's hard to get a read on whether or not SNAPP is interested in also representing these families, or if SNAPP is committed to advocacy on behalf of Lincoln APP families only. Any further clarifications would be much appreciated!

Also re: the eligibility numbers, these also do not include schools that don't offer any AL programs. Nearly 1/4 of the kids in my 5th grader's class were scheduled for testing the same time, and I imagine others were scheduled for later in the day. There are a lot of likely APP-eligible kids at the school, not reflected an any of these numbers. That's probably true for other schools as well, especially if ALO programs are of such uneven quality, and Spectrum programs have wait lists. Why bother testing until 5th grade?


Anonymous said...

More info & HIMS - thank you! In all my distracted thinking about this, I completely forgot about the fact that those schools wouldn't show up on any of those lists. I would definitely agree, just from anecdotal experience, that there are kids heading for APP MS from JSIS, Bagley, etc. They may not have tested yet, or may need to test again, but that doesn't mean they aren't relevant when discussing potential numbers...

Also opting in

Anonymous said...

SNAPP is the name of the the Lincoln PTA. I am confused why people think one school PTA should speak for others not at the school.... This is the role of the APP AC, not the Lincoln PTA.

Again, as many others pointed out, the name was chosen because no one knew long the kids would be at Lincoln and no one wanted to tie the name to a temporary building.

As someone who spent HOURS and HOURS trying to get Lincoln ready over that summer, I find this frustrating. Nothing better then people complaining from the sidelines.


Anonymous said...

Unless you're enrolled at Lincoln, your child isn't considered an APP student. You may be getting some APP level instruction if you choose to remain at your local school, but you're not considered to be an APP student. From the district website:

"The Accelerated Progress Program (APP) provides a rigorous, accelerated curriculum in language arts, mathematics, science, and social studies that challenges students to apply complex thinking skills when working with core skills and concepts. The curriculum is presented at a significantly accelerated learning pace and focuses on grade level expectations that are significantly above the students' assigned grade level with a significantly advanced level of complexity and depth. Service delivery is through a self-contained program during grades 1-8."

I think it's great that many families have been able to find great services at their neighborhood school that their kids find challenging. I wish our neighborhood school could have fit that bill. It didn't, so we enrolled in APP at Lowell and then Lincoln. But unless you enroll in the program at Lincoln, you're not in APP. You keep your APP designation if you're at a Spectrum/ALO school, but you're not in APP.

I believe that Lincoln's PTA SNAPP should speak about the issues of north end APP elementary students (those who are enrolled). SNAPP is the PTA of Lincoln's families, not the PTA of all north end APP enrolled and APP qualified students. Their job isn't to represent or advocate for other groups. Maybe it's the SNAPP name that's confusing, maybe it's people's perceptions or expectations of what SNAPP is suppose to do, who knows. All I know it that our PTA works very hard and is very thoughtful, and is made up of regular parents like you and I. I want them to be spending their time advocating for the students at Lincoln and for the integrity of elementary APP. I truly believe that our PTA wants APP to be around for many years to come and advocates for what they think is best for the long term health and strength of the program, not just the benefit of the current students or their own kids. Many on the PTA and other families like myself have kids at Hamilton, so we know that new students join APP in middle school. Anything that is offered up as ideas from SNAPP is not said without regard for families joining in 6th grade. We know decisions impact current APP students as well as those joining APP in 6th grade.

Maybe a question could be is why aren't neighborhood PTA's better informing their APP families of these issues? Shouldn't neighborhood PTA's be representing all of their own families?


Anonymous said...

To those who are recommending that the Lincoln/SNAPP PTA reach out to other elementary schools who have APP qualified students - great idea. Maybe you could help with this! Please remember that the Lincoln/SNAPP PTA is made up of busy parents, many of whom also have full-time jobs. Personally, I am impressed by the amount of time the SNAPP PTA president has been putting in.

Also, I know that the PTA has done some outreach to PTAs and they've also been working on getting a meeting together of all the PTA chairs (not sure if it's citywide or north Seattle).

It's easy to criticize that a group should be doing more - but it carries a lot more weight if you're actually willing to step up and be part of the solution. It doesn't take much time or effort to gripe on this blog.


Anonymous said...

Thank you Cricket, Lincoln/HIMS, and Jane. Those are all sentiments that I was wanting to convey in my unsigned anonymous post (sorry about that). I wrote a longer post but I really don't want to add fuel to the fire. We all need to own up to ourselves and do what is within our control. There is NOTHING preventing anyone of us to get more involved and to reach out and get more information. That's why I'm bothered by the complaining and yes, whining. It's not to be dismissive. We need to get over feeling entitled to things we are not (and this is not an APP's pervasive in our culture), and we need to start having realistic expectations of others.

If you choose not to enroll in APP, the onus is on you to get information and to reach out and communicate. Yes, in a perfect world, wouldn't it be great IF... However, people are busy and they're doing the best they can and if it doesn't meet your needs, try reaching out and helping instead of criticizing.

take charge

Anonymous said...

To those who complain that the PTA of another school does not inform them, canvas their opinions or needs, or advocate for them I would ask - doesn't a large part of this responsibility fall upon the PTA at your own current school? After all they are tasked with representing all populations at your school, including presumably, APP-eligible students.
Our PTA (APP@Lincoln AKA SNAPP) does a tremendous job for the families and students at our school, under rather trying and uncertain circumstances. I think it's disingenuous to start complaining about the scope implied by the inclusion of 'seattle north' in their name (reasons for this have been covered in earlier posts), and criticizing about them for not reaching out to families that aren't even part of our school community.
How about you ask your own school PTA to reach out to APP or advocate on behalf of the APP-eligible students at your school? Sign up for the APP- AC mailing list (this group deals with district-wide APP issues ) - has your PTA disseminated information about this group?
Out PTA is not being exclusive or rejecting the voice of families not enrolled in APP. They are very invested in doing what is best for the overall longterm strength and consistency of the whole APP program, however, this is a parent volunteer group with limited time and resources and the necessary focus is on the needs of our specific school community (as with any other PTA).
If you do not currently have a child attending Lincoln, why would you expect anything from the Lincoln PTA? (or the PTA of any other APP-containing school).
APP-eligible families seek information and advocate independently or as a block with other eligible families at their schools , or request that their own PTA does on your behalf.

my 2 cents

Anonymous said...

I think many of you are confusing "advocating for" with the concept of coalition building & strength in numbers....

Anonymous said...

Ignoring all the other mess for now, has SNAPP submitted an official recommendation to SPS and/or the Board re: the preferred option for middle school APP in the north? If so, could someone please share that here, since not everyone can access that information? I think that would go a long way toward creating more shared understanding...

apparent said...

“. . . the Lincoln PTA is now recommending advocating for a 2-way split between Wilson Pacific and Hamilton. Until WP opens in 2017, they say we should ask to be ‘annexed’ at Lincoln and not be split until then.” ln, 11/7@4.42

Why is SNAPP – the Lincoln PTA – now advocating to split north Seattle APP middle school? Why not just put all north APP MS intact into John Marshall in fall 2014, and keep JA K-8 at JAMS until 2016 as SPS originally recommended?

Let us all be very clear: there is NO capacity related justification for splitting north APP MS next fall, when all those students (2013-14 actual enrollment 542) can easily fit into John Marshall Middle School (capacity 952).

That is the exact capacity solution originally recommended by Superintendent Banda in draft GBP Version 1, Option 1. In both options of draft GBP Version 1, SPS staff originally sensibly recommended that Jane Addams K-8 should stay put, cohousing with the new Jane Addams Middle School for two years using interim portables until their new JA K-8 building at Pinehurst opens in 2016. But then draft GBP Version 2 and also Version 3 later bypassed that sensible solution and now propose instead to “fill” John Marshall Middle School well below building capacity, reserving that building from 2014-16 for the exclusive interim use of JA K-8 (2013-14 actual enrollment 737 includes middle schoolers who will exercise school choice transfers to remain at their neighborhood Jane Addams Middle School).

SNAPP’s current advocacy to split north Seattle APP MS undercuts the perfectly clear message against splitting either south elementary or north middle school that was already communicated effectively to Superintendent Banda and the board directors on October 29 by the typically cautious APP Advisory Committee (APP-AC):

“This plan does not demonstrate a long-term vision for Highly Capable Learners.”

“Program integrity is paramount, and we believe the District plan places APP program integrity at great risk.”

“Because this process is rushed, because the plan lacks long-term vision, because the plan will create inequity in how APP is delivered, and because this plan preempts the work of the Identification and Service Delivery Model Task Forces, we recommend that all decisions concerning APP should be tabled for 2014.”

Based on extensive family feedback, the APP-AC is strenuously objecting to:

“Too much growth too quickly. Expanding from six sites to thirteen sites will endanger fidelity of curriculum, professional development and collaboration, and cohort size.”

“Site placement based solely on capacity issues. Many of the sites proposed for APP placement are directly contrary to the idea that APP should be placed where there are welcoming communities and supportive leadership, with principals and teachers committed to the academic needs of APP students, as recommended in the District's Audit of APP.”

Like every reader, I very much appreciate all the hard work and community building regularly done by SNAPP, but this shows that Lynn is surely right to call for a broader districtwide APP (or advanced learning) PTSA representing elementary through high school.

It is a total failure of vision and leadership for the SNAPP elementary leadership to advocate splitting north Seattle APP MS now, against APP-AC feedback and absent any pending advanced learning task force recommendations, while John Marshall Middle School is still awaiting assignment for fall 2014.

apparent said...

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the King’s Horses
And all the King’s men
Couldn’t put Humpty together again

Better to split the north Seattle APP program now, or instead to move all the students together to the John Marshall building? That question has already been asked and answered by APP families.

In the March 2012 SNAPP PTA Survey of enrolled elementary north Seattle APP families (linked under older posts from SNAPP website), a very clear majority described the John Marshall Middle School building as “acceptable for []our child.” Here was the question about the Lincoln High School building:

Q. “The district is in search of a long-term solution/home for Lowell@Lincoln [elementary] students. How long would you be willing to stay at Lincoln until a permanent location(s) can be found?”

A. “However long it takes”: 91% of responses. The next question is asked about the John Marshall Middle School building:

Q. “Thinking about currently available school buildings north of the Ship Canal, and the John Marshall building (former middle school near Green Lake, currently leased to community groups) in particular, would that type of building be acceptable for your child?”

A. “YES”: over 60%; “MAYBE”: under 37%; “NO”: 3%. (“198 survey responses representing over 50% of our families. Respondents proportionate among grades with the exception of 5th grade with expected fewer responses.”)

These are the very same north Seattle APP families whose children are now entering middle school; and unsurprisingly, the same middle school sentiment to keep this cohort intact has again been strongly conveyed to the SPS board.

That means moving all north APP MS to John Marshall in fall 2014, since the Lincoln annex plan seems dropped, which perhaps still leaves open some possibility of a future intact move to Wilson-Pacific when that building will open in 2017. To avoid an imminent split, the only remaining alternative to John Marshall is the more unlikely “do-nothing option” which might keep north APP MS at Hamilton a little longer.

Anonymous said...

In SNAPP's defense, my (very limited, since my kids stayed at our neighborhood school for ALO) understanding is not that they are advocating *for* a split into 2, just that 2 would be better than 3. My -impression- is that SNAPP would have preferred an APP middle school at WP over any of this, but that they are now trying to minimize the damage...

I wholeheartedly second the suggestion that somebody 'official' from SNAPP should use this page as a way to at least articulate what they are asking for on behalf of future APP middle schoolers. I can understand why they want their facebook page to be private (although aren't PTA meetings themselves open to anyone?), but they are missing the chance to get some community support & buy in when they could really use it.

Anonymous said...

From a March 2012 thread on JM, etc.:

Looking at the PTA survey results on the SNAPP web site, here's the actual question asked (italics mine):

"Thinking about currently available buildings north of the Ship Canal, and the John Marshall building (former middle school near Greenlake, currently leased to community groups) in particular, would that type of building be acceptable for your child?"

3% of the respondents answered "no", and 97% either said "yes" or "maybe".

This survey question is worded with both a general inquiry ("type of building" and "currently available buildings") and a specific example (John Marshall). Given this, I don't think it's valid to say that there is support for John Marshall based on responses to the question as asked. Some may have been thinking about John Marshall specifically, while others may have been thinking about other buildings north of the Ship Canal.

- Survey Says!

Also, in response:

When taking the survey I probably said yes to the JM question but, at the time, I didn't know the district said it was inappropriate for elementary kids and I didn't have the air quality studies to help inform my decision, either.

Had it been worded, "Thinking about John Marshall and the adverse health effects of being situated so close to the freeway, would that be acceptable for your child and school staff?" do you think there would have been strong support?

Location, location, location.

apparent said...

Thanks ALO Anonymous for your helpful explanation of SNAPP's reasoning, but by the same token, if 2 would be better than 3, wouldn't 1 be better than 2?

If SNAPP would have preferred an APP middle school at WP over this imminently threatened split, why not an APP middle school at JM?

Why does SNAPP not publicly endorse the 'No Splits' and 'Table APP for 2014!' recommendations of the APP-AC?

Anonymous said...

The idea of a Lincoln annex or moving all middle school APP to John Marshall next fall is a dead in the water issue. After many discussions with the various school board members, emails, coffee chats, etc., it is clear that there is no desire by the School Board to move all of north end APP middle school intact. Zero. This is a dead issue. Our PTA and the APP AC have advocated for keeping the cohort intact for a long period of time. Unfortunately, the School Board members don't agree with this model for middle school. We could certainly ask our SNAPP PTA to keep fighting this fight. I think that anyone who still wants to advocate on behalf of this idea should do that. But if our SNAPP PTA has determined that truly we are shooting ourselves in the foot by continuing to beat this dead horse, then I'm willing to have them work on the plan that will do the least damage and will do the best to maintain the strength and continuity of the program over the long haul.

The School Board and district staff have made it clear that Jane Addams to open as a comprehensive middle school next fall, and that JA k-8 must move in order to accomplish this. There isn't an advocate on the School Board for APP middle school to be moved to John Marshall. Although I wish that fact were different, it's just not the case. As much as it makes sense to not overcrowd Hamilton, Jane Addams, Whitman, or Eckstein by importing APP students, there is no district/School Board will to change anything. At this point in the game, the only thing that will change proposal 3.0 is an amendment from a School Board member and then 4 members to vote on it. That doesn't exist.

So it's not that SNAPP PTA isn't advocating to keep APP middle school together. It's trying to keep the program from being diluted to 3 sites. I believe that they are trying to create the least bad situation out of some really bad options. If you feel differently, please contact the School Board members and advocate for an amendment with what you believe might have a chance of gaining traction.


apparent said...

"Our PTA and the APP AC have advocated for keeping the cohort intact for a long period of time. Unfortunately, the School Board members don't agree with this model for middle school."

"There isn't an advocate on the School Board for APP middle school to be moved to John Marshall. Although I wish that fact were different, it's just not the case."


thanks for your very clear, thoughtful and informed political analysis of why we stand here at this eleventh hour. But please let me add one detail.

The School Board members may not so far seem to agree with the intact cohort model for north APP middle school. But in Version 1, SPS staff presented them with a false dichotomy between "stand-alone" (e.g. WP APP elementary) and "co-sharing with attendance area students" (e.g. JAMS APP middle) models. Reopening John Marshall Middle School is in fact a different model, including the co-sharing that SPS directors evidently want, but with other programs or interim schools instead of a neighborhood school.

And for those all those APP parents whose intact cohort long-term preference remains the new Wilson-Pacific Middle School from 2017, note that intact relocation to John Marshall Middle School in 2014 actually preserves that possibility for a new SPS board. The proposed "No Splits!" amendment I already posted on the previous thread includes that very idea, as well as being entirely symmetrical north and south.

Again, many thanks for your illuminating political analysis.

Anonymous said...

PotAYtoe, pahTAHTo, whatever one calls the PTA for APP@Lincoln, we are there, and I can assure you, it does not speak for me (our kids go to this school, and have endure Lowell splits). If something is voiced in opposition to their (really 'her') point of view, it is dismissed or you are dismissed or both. Charming.

Some of us would prefer a 6th grade roll up at Lincoln. For lots of reasons.

As to students who are qualified but not enrolled, they are not APP. They may prefer something different, but how could they know what works, since they're not even participating in the program to begin with? Nevertheless, I recognize there are different opinions as to what represents the best choice, and we can all agree to disagree. But in the end, it doesn't really matter, because the Snapp pta will do exactly what they want to do, as will the Directors and Tolley.

For those of us in the program, who had miserable kindergarteners because our kids were so "different ", Program service integrity is paramount, and while going to Hamilton would be better, if we can't, we would rather stay here, with a suboptimal 'comprehenisive' experience than be split into 3 or 2. K8s are things that many families do find to be okay. And, given our large cohorts in the older grades, we already surpass McClure in terms of size that would roll up, even if nobody else ever joined us, which I doubt would be the case.

At the Sherry Carr Lincoln meeting, some parents did say they would prefer it. But SNAPP keeps that alternative unseen/unheard because... Well, have you met them?

Just saying, I'm at Lincoln, and they do not speak for me. And before anyone says join it, good luck with that. It doesn't work that way.

-false assumptions

Anonymous said...

That's not true, False Assumptions. SNAPP PTA did push for a 6th grade annex at Lincoln. It's in the SNAPP PTA mail from 10/18 recommending that we push for it.

Anonymous said...

An annex is different than a roll up. It is a different solution. It is what Boren K5 STEM is doing. The District has zero interest in an annex, just like putting portables on the city park is not of interest.

Anonymous said...

Yes, but the district is against APP 6th grade at Lincoln regardless whether it is a roll-up or an annex.

Anonymous said...

Why is it that a representative from SNAPP does not post on this blog? For crying out loud, this is the most transparent arena for APP issues (now that the APP-AC has gone...where HAVE they gone?)

Please, SNAPP-folk, turn a new leaf, shed your backroom dealings a la JB, and represent the parents and kids!


Anonymous said...

Because it is a volunteer organization with enough on its late. You should volunteer to be web media liaison, if you think it is important!

Anonymous said...

Sorry, who is JB?

ALO for now said...

I've been mulling over this debate all week, and can see both sides - SNAPP being -perceived- as the voice of all north end APP, and the view that local PTAs are responsible for supporting ALL of their families, APP or not. Wondering if any local schools/PTAs offer 'parent liaisons' for advanced learning info? Someone who could facilitate communication between the district and/or SNAPP (for example) and families doing ALO at their neighborhood school, or simply answer questions for families debating between the two, considering testing, planning APP at MS, etc., etc.

I'm starting a conversation about this at my own school, but wondering what people think about the idea, if it's ever been tried before, etc.

apparent said...

"Since SPS Growth Boundary Plan 4.0 no longer splits APP middle school now, why does the SNAPP board support directors DeBell and Martin-Morris’s amendment to split APP middle school next fall 2014?"

Whew! North APP middle school is almost off the chopping block, at least for now. Draft Growth Boundaries Plan Version 4.0 completely drops any reference to the north-end APP program, other than saying that such program placements will be announced by Superintendent Banda before (or even after) open enrollment.

So why does the SNAPP leadership – in its ill-advised November 18 open letter to Superintendent Banda and the school board – still advocate in support of the deeply divisive DeBell & Martin-Morris Amendment 4 which would execute a 3-way north APP middle school split beginning next fall? In a torrent of community feedback to SPS, both APP and neighborhood families have clearly asked instead that this program be kept intact in one stable location.

With bracketed responses, relevant extracts follow below from SNAPP’s self-contradictory November 18 letter supporting the divisive DeBell/Martin-Morris Amendment 4 and its projected needless, hare-brained 3-way split.

“November 18th, 2013
“Dear Superintendent Banda and School Board:

“. . . SNAPP PTA has clearly stated our position regarding APP middle school placement. For capacity management and program stability, we believe that it is in the best interest of all students in the north end that APP middle school students in the north be assigned to Wilson-Pacific Middle School.

“Understanding that Hamilton’s capacity cannot continue to house incoming attendance area and APP students next year, we realize that a split may be necessary. . . .” [Why? There is obviously no capacity related justification for splitting Hamilton’s 542 students, especially when 952-seat John Marshall Middle School still awaits allocation. Why is SNAPP joining in a misguided political effort to dilute the APP program absent any supporting advanced learning task force recommendations?]

“The Advanced Learning Task Force and APP Advisory Committee have created some program guidelines [i.e., cohort size, core curriculum, electives, teacher hires] that we want included in the DeBell/Martin-Morris amendment. . . .” [Why is SNAPP leadership asking Directors Smith-Blum, Carr, Patu, McLaren and Peaslee to vote for rather than against the DeBell/Martin-Morris amendment to split? Four or five NO votes from those other directors against the DeB/M-M amendment at the school board meeting tomorrow evening November 20 will keep north APP middle school intact, at least for now.]

“Please consider that you are not only disrupting the same program, but the exact same children who were split twice and kicked out of Lowell their last year of elementary school. Despite your personal views of APP parents or the program, you are targeting CHILDREN who will have attended FIVE different school buildings before graduating from middle school. Our children aren’t any ‘more special’ than any other, but they are not any LESS important either.

“We are not asking for special treatment, we are asking for equity – a school name, a stable, predictable pathway and supportive leaders.

“APP @ Lincoln PTA Board”

[Wholeheartedly agree with these last two paragraphs, but in fact they counsel strongly AGAINST and not for the highly disruptive DeBell/Martin-Morris Amendment 4, which would split north APP middle school next fall if directors DeBell and Martin-Morris can muster two more votes out of the remaining five board directors.]

apparent said...

Urgent request to SNAPP board: Please RESCIND unfortunate November 18 letter that crossed with last-minute SPS plan 4.0 revision keeping APP middle school intact now . . .

On the eve of the SPS board vote, we are now in the remarkable position that while the final proposed Growth Boundaries Plan (Version 4.0) no longer proposes any imminent split of the 542 north APP middle school students, the SNAPP board is advocating for a 3-way split beginning next fall 2014!

By asking the remaining five SPS directors Smith-Blum, Carr, Patu, McLaren and Peaslee to vote up rather than down this very foolish and destructive DeBell/Martin-Morris Amendment 4 to split north APP middle school into thirds, the SNAPP leadership team now advocates directly against the overall program unity and integrity so consistently defended by the APP Advisory Committee (APP-AC) and by most affected families.

Hence this urgent open request to the SNAPP leadership to rescind TODAY – i.e. BEFORE tomorrow’s November 20 school board vote – such thoroughly unrepresentative and inappropriate support for the divisive DeBell/Martin-Morris amendment that would begin splitting north APP middle school into three pieces next fall, without any proffered SPS staff capacity planning justification.

The final draft Growth Boundaries Plan (i.e. Version 4.0) no longer threatens an imminent split of north APP middle school next fall. Certainly SNAPP leadership may not have realized this when composing their letter the very same day. Regardless, that November 18 SNAPP letter to Superintendent Banda and the SPS board supporting the foolish and destructive DeBell/Martin-Morris amendment to split north APP middle school DOES NOT REPRESENT OUR FAMILY or any majority of affected APP or neighborhood families.

This is therefore an open request to the SNAPP board to rescind that unfortunate November 18 letter immediately; to oppose the divisive DeBell/Martin-Morris Amendment 4 and request its withdrawal; and to urge all every other board member either to approve the Growth Boundaries Plan without the “Split APP” amendment, or else to vote the plan down entirely.

Either approving the final plan, or voting it down entirely, will simply put back into Superintendent Banda’s hands the ultimate decision on 2013-14 north APP middle school program placement.

After the boundaries plan vote tomorrow November 20, SNAPP leadership will need to work hard with Superintendent Banda and SPS staff to keep both elementary and middle school APP cohorts intact through open enrollment and beyond.

P.S. November 18 letter available to all readers on SNAPP website. Although an APP @ Lincoln family, never visit SNAPP facebook page because don’t like facebook. Could Lincoln/HIMS or another kind reader alert the SNAPP board to this urgent request, and this open thread?

Anonymous said...

apparent, I'm not sure what you're referring to by version 4.0, but the current plan on the table for tomorrow's board meeting DOES in fact have an APP split in it--a NE APP site at the new JAMS next fall. Why are you saying there is no imminent split?


apparent said...


Yes, I've been wading through it all and you are absolutely right. I believe they put up this reference material at different times, and it has caused much confusion.

So it is again a choice of splits, or else still hoping against hope that the board will vote down the whole plan completely.

Obviously, my concern in the two preceding posts is no longer raised – but I really do wish that the SNAPP board had stuck to advocating for just one north Seattle middle school site, and that they had demanded the John Marshall Middle School building as an alternative to this seemingly imminent split.

As I will repeat yet again, the fact that the district faces an overall capacity shortage is not a good reason for splitting APP locations so long as they can fit into available buildings. This likely north APP middle school split is now being justified based on a fictional projected enrollment of 861 four years from now, but at Hamilton this year that currently enrolled cohort is in fact only 542 students.

This is all political. And APP families are spread thinly among all the directors. Almost every other school community is concentrated in one director's constituency, and consequently has much better representation.

Anonymous said...

...but I really do wish that the SNAPP board had stuck to advocating for just one north Seattle middle school site, and that they had demanded the John Marshall Middle School building as an alternative to this seemingly imminent split.

Once again, John Marshall is an aging building in an unfortunate location right next to the freeway. If it could be magically transported to a location further from the freeway, perhaps it could be put to use as use you wish, but it can't. It shouldn't be used for anything other than an interim location, and that is still less than ideal. If APP were to be placed there (no chance in hell of a standalone APP middle school, but hypothetically speaking), it would end up being interim in a way that Lincoln is interim for elementary. Yes, I know that's your dream, but it really ignores the whole issue of poor location.