Due to the large number of comments and to make it easier on mobile readers, I'm starting a 3rd part to this thread to continue the discussion on the test results for this year.
Thread Part 1
Thread Part 2
Update: One parent reports 3/10 that "AL office replied: "We mailed over 2,000 eligibility decision letters yesterday afternoon and continue to make eligibility decisions."
Results seem to be going out finally. So I expect we'll move into the appeal process soon.
168 comments:
We received an email saying our qualified for Spectrum, but without any specific scores. Is the appeal time-frame based off of this email or off of the letter that we are supposed to receive soon?
-YMom
SouthEndMom, anything in your mail today? :-)
Waiting
Ymom,
I submitted my appeal as soon as I received my email. I don't know the answer to your question regarding the start of the three week appeal process, but I figured once I had a decision, I might as well send it in.
Nothing, @Waiting! What about you?
It's worse knowing that some 1/30 people now have received their results. Argh. I just want to make plans for next year, whatever those plans might be.
Our mail comes late in the day, but I will post if we get a letter. This is nuts.
Waiting
Anonymous said...
Our kid took the full CogAT on 1/30. We got the scores in the mail today.
The first line of the letter says their decision for whether your child has been placed into HCC. It then shows the CogAT scores for the screening form plus for seven different sections (e.g. verbal). Also, it showed the reading and math achievement test percentiles.
Best wishes.
March 7, 2016 at 10:32 PM
Did anyone else from 1/30's full testing date receive a letter? Can't put my finger on it, but sthis poster might be taking the pi$s, as we say.
My child also took the full CogAT on 1/30, and we also continue to wait for an eligibility letter. Maybe they're sending by zip code? I shall resist the urge to say something snarky and go check out the solar eclipse live stream instead.
My child took the initial CogAT in early November. We've STILL heard nothing!! We were hoping for an ALO qualifying score (not HCC)so it doesn't make sense to appeal yet. Honestly, wouldn't it be better to just test all kids? This process is so poorly executed and skewed toward those with a high level of education and means.
QA Mum
Still waiting for a letter. Tested In October.
Roll call of who is waiting and who got a letter or email? Grade and test date?
First grade, Jan 30. Nothing.
1/30 full cogat; first grade; heard nothing.
We got an email on Friday. 2nd grade, screener only. Tested on 12/5. Still no letter.
January 30. Full cogat. Kindergarten. Nothing.
1/30 full CogAT; 1st grade; heard nothing.
Two kindergartener kids screener tested 1/16. No full tests. Got an email about "your child" getting into Spectrum, then "we wish to recall that message", then "your child" is not eligible for any advanced learning.
Follow-up emails asking "which child" this applies to go unanswered.
No letters in mail yet. Private testing scheduled for appeal since our children's teachers are telling us to consider advanced learning as the kids are zooming ahead and are bored in class. Our boy is now becoming the sometimes-disruptive class clown because he is moving at a faster pace than other kids.
I get they are under-staffed, and that 5000+ families have applied, but this is not a new process.
Tested in October. No letter. Got the email last week though.
Mag mom
1/30 full CogAT, kindergartener. Nothing in today's (or any other day's) mail, and no email either.
Another question - has anyone already appealed and received a response?
I am sure we are good for our appeal, since we included qualifying scores for both cognitive and achievement testing. But, you never know.
~Patience
5th grader tested in October no results received
My second grader took the screener in October, no full CogAt, so I already knew I'd be appealing. Got notice of eligibility March 4, no name just 'your second grader'. Completing Appeal today.
Sorry, 12:08 anon again. The notice of eligibility I got was email notice. No letter yet recieved. No scores reported.
Last year Advanced Learning stated they had asked for budget for updated systems. IF they got their systems and requested staffing and continue to have such problems, the Advanced Learning leadership should be fired. If they were denied the requested systems and staffing by their managers, then their bosses should be fired. Other organizations test far more students without constantly missing deadlines and mis-sending confidential student information to the wrong people. In healthcare if you disclose personally identifiable information to the wrong people its a federal offense. In Seattle Schools its business as usual. The district's kids and parents and teachers deserve better. This is an absolute mockery and has been going on for years.
Stop the execuses
Nothing here either for the 1/30 Cogat.
And I agree that the post on Monday night seems bogus so who knows when we'll hear anything.
Waiting
Another 1/30 full Cogat (1st grade) that has not had any notification yet.
I think that the issue is beyond the official line of mailing/data entry issues since that would imply that all the decisions had been made. I can't imagine it would take this long to sort that out.
Family in Waiting
K kid took screener in October. No email, no letter in mail. Nothing.
I think they should de-couple the initial release of scores from the eligibility decisions. Imagine if the AL staff entered the scores (maybe in the Source, or even just in their own database) as they came in. And sent them to parents (or released them on the Source) on a rolling basis, with nothing about eligibility, just a statement that eligibility will be determined by the MSC. Then they could devote their time, when testing is finished, to reviewing the applications, but parents would know 99% of the information they needed to predict what their eligibility would be. And there would not be this mess of having to review and decide on everything while parents have gone 6 months without any idea of how their child scored on this test.
Totally agree with what Anon. mentioned...March 9, 2016 at 7:24 PM. Good idea not to be waiting for months without getting the scores until an eligibility decision made.
We got our letter on 2/29. I'm reading all this info everywhere that the Spectrum program is dead- so then why would they place kids in that program if its not available? As a private school parent this whole procedure has been so confusing! We took one test, then were told we needed another- the Advanced Learning website never mentioned TWO tests? Then we were told there was no time to take the 2nd test, send in our ERB scores- which we did. Our kid was placed in Spectrum- tested in the HCC percentile (above 95) for Math and Lit, but the Cogat was 97 (not the required 98). From reading this website HCC advocates say the 97 to 98 is a HUGE difference- so it seems like we shouldn't appeal. The whole system seems nuts and the more I read, I'm terrified of making the jump to SPS
--private schooler
private schooler,
Is your child happy in their current school? Are their needs being met? If so, I would not move them. If not, you should schedule private IQ testing because that is more reliable than the CogAT. It will provide you with the information you need to make this decision.
IMO if a kid got a 97 on the CogAT, there was not a problem with the reliability of the test. The kid may well score higher than that on an IQ test, but that is because it is a DIFFERENT test designed to measure different things (with overlap). Also, it's not like IQ tests are so uber reliable that there are no variables in the score from things like rapport with psychologist, how the kid feels that day etc.
Too many generalizations of CogAT versus IQ.
sorry, i should have mentioned my kid is going into 6th grade so we will have to leave our current school regardless
-private schooler
Appeal. Our child took the district administered CogAT, qualified, but we chose not to switch to APP/HCC at the time (mistake, for reasons I won't detail here...but live and learn). Next testing cycle (this was when students needed to requalify each year if they didn't enroll in the program) some scores were bizarrely low. My child said the test proctor did not clearly explain the subtest sample problems - could explain the awful scores. In our case the appeal included scores from the previous district administered test, because CogAT scores were considered valid for 3 years.
Unfortunately, middle school HCC has been the weak link in the AL pathway. It's been hit or miss each year, as the curriculum keeps changing and the experience is very teacher dependent. In hindsight, middle school may have been the best time to go private. That said, if your child is testing at the 97th percentile and has done well in school so far, you should have little concern about your child being able to handle the work in an HCC classroom. Enrolling in a HCC pathway school will allow for an accelerated math and science pathway (an advantage come high school), as well as world language starting in 6th grade.
One thing I keep wondering about is comments about CogAT scores. My kid has consistently scored 99th p-tile (4 tests so far), but keeps missing on the achievement test de jour (hovering around 90th p-tile). Why is this? My theory is a combination of boredom and distraction during achievement testing. Also, he has a late spring birthday. The thing is, he really needs HCC, but we have consistently and unequivocally been told that he does not qualify because of his "too low" achievement. It raises concerns for me about he goals of HCC, because he is definitely highly capable.
HC
The CogAT is age normed, which could advantage young-for-grade students (especially summer birthdays), while achievement tests are grade normed.
I wouldn't ascribe an "advantage" on the CogAT to a late spring birthday.
HC, what do his teachers say about his classroom achievement? Have you ever submitted a strongly worded reco from one of them? Is private achievement testing an option for you? The district-administered "achievement" tests are NOT designed for that purpose.
Hate to be a conspiracy theorist but at this point it seems possible that this isn't just a 'mailing issue'. Practically speaking even if the process was 100% manual if you got a couple of people in to stuff envelopes and triple check names manually on a list you could have very easily had the results out by now. Using simple automation (which apparently they tried and failed to do earlier) would bring this process down to hours instead of days. The number of inconsistencies, recalls, errors etc. reported by people in this blog signals a more systemic problem than just a mailing error.
If they don't have the processes/people to do a matching of address to result it stands to reason that their ability to successfully manage the inputs in a much more uncontrolled environment (the tests themselves) is highly suspect. Translation - What confidence do you have that they were able to label and collect the tests appropriately from a room full of kindergartners, given the struggles they are having in simply mailing out results.
At some point the entire process gets called into question when a certain amount of incompetence is displayed over a sustained period of time. Troubling.
HC, is your child being exposed to above grade level work?
We are appealing with private achievement tests, which came out well above the 95th ptile for math. Reading is a mix - below 90th ptile based on grade normed, 93rd ptile for age normed. sigh. forgot to mention dyslexia. We have a strongly worded letter from both tester and teacher that he belongs in the program, but the program is so full that my hunch is that he won't get in, not because he doesn't need the program but because the district looks for reasons to keep kids out. I sure hope I am wrong. And who knows when we'll know about the appeal, with so many people still awaiting initial results.
HC
HC, good luck. I hope this is what they are talking about when they say there is no absolute cutoff score for HCC. I hope he is admitted.
He is working one grade above in an ALO school. Maxed out the "top tier" in reading last year. Complains about math being too slow. He can do complex problems in his head, which just amazes me. School based achievement tests were never supposed to be used for program placement. It appears to me that SPS has an "accelerated" program, rather than a "gifted and talented" program.
HC
Troubling/conspiracy theorist, I am also getting concerned. I'm not really questioning the fidelity of the actual scores (or their barcode to test booklet system), but it seems like the process came to a standstill this week. Is the MSC actually even making decisions this week? Since the email recalls on Friday, there haven't been any notifications. The people who got the emails haven't gotten their scores via letters. There haven't been any further emails.
Benjamin, is there any way to get an update from Janine Madaffari to confirm that the MSC is still being allowed to function and make eligibility decisions?
Troubled too
Thanks for your good wishes. I think the broader issue for the community is how the achievement tests are used as a gateway for entry to advanced learning. I think their only good use is to prompt an invitation for CogAT testing to bring in children whose parents may not have considered testing (in addition to teacher invitation).
HC
Makes me wonder if something bigger is going on too. Like maybe so many kids appear to be qualifying that it will break Hamilton and/or Lincoln this fall and they're trying to figure out a plan first?
They've been processing "5,000" kids per year for the last 10 years - remember how kids used to have to re-test to maintain qualification if not in APP? But it's only in recent years during the height of the capacity crisis that these insane delays are happening. Why doesn't the Super or some/all of the Board demand answers?
I feel bad for 5th grade parents who are still waiting. Private school decisions go out very soon, maybe this week. If you're hoping for APP as an alternative to private, you might not know the answer before private schools want their deposit money.
Tin Foil Hat
Since this happened on Friday, it seems like there have been no emails or letters all this week:
Yesterday afternoon 212 emails were sent to families of Kindergarteners indicating that their student qualified for AL (Spectrum). 127 email recipients were told that the students are eligible when in fact they are not.
Following discovery of the error, a second message clarifying ineligibility was sent to the families who had received incorrect information.
To date, review of how this happened relates to human error.
Stephen Nielsen
Deputy Superintendent
Seattle Public Schools
From the Ombudsperson FAQs. I wonder if the Ombudsperson could help. Not related to any eligibility decisions based on test scores, but with the timeliness of the process or any other violations. Note that "appeal" is used differently here than in the sense of an AL appeal.
This group of questions is aimed primarily at parents whose student has not been offered a place at their choice school and who may be considering making a complaint to the district ombudsperson.
My child did not get a place at the school we applied to. Can I complain to the ombudsperson?
In some cases, yes. The ombudsperson is not another level of appeal and cannot question decisions if they were handled properly and fairly by Enrollment Planning/Services or the Appeal Office.
The ombudsperson can consider your complaint if you think that a place at a school was refused because of some unfairness or mistake by enrollment authority, or if your appeal was handled incorrectly.
You can also complain if you have asked for an appeal and the enrollment authority has not addressed your appeal for you within a reasonable time (as stated in appeal process).
...but the program is so full that my hunch is that he won't get in, not because he doesn't need the program but because the district looks for reasons to keep kids out.
In defense of AL, I don't think they would intentionally try to "keep kids out." I think they genuinely try to make the best placement based on the information they have, and attempt to keep the process fair. There are real people making the placement decisions. The number of students tested (and the number of appeals) have increased significantly over the past few years, and they seem especially understaffed. Does it excuse the craziness this year? No, but I have a difficult time believing there is something more sinister going on.
Tin Foil Hat- you are right. Private schools will let applicants know tomorrow at noon. Even with our test results, we are still waiting on the school choice form lottery system- it's either that or appeal the Spectrum decision to an HCC designation just so we can automatically get assigned to our first choice school. Even with an appeal, we still have to put down a deposit on a private school while waiting to hear from SPS.
I sent an e-mail asking about results. AL office replied: "We mailed over 2,000 eligibility decision letters yesterday afternoon and continue to make eligibility decisions." I received this today. So I'm guessing, if this is true, there should be more people receiving results tomorrow (3/11).
Going private to public too. It is scary. Very high ITBS scores last spring, but the Cogat (second SPS test) wasn't high enough.
Doing private IQ testing Monday. Going to use that plus the ITBS scores for the appeal. How is the private IQ testing more reliable than the CogAT?
Nothing in my mail today.
So the 2000 letters did not include the students who took the full Cogat on 1/30. Wonderful. These are the kids who had to jump through the most hoops and it seems they will be the last to be notified.
So I spoke with my son's teacher this morning (he is a 6yo first grader in Spectrum at a Spectrum school). Apparently he is not be allowed to work on higher level material or more challenging work because she says he does not always finish the other work is he assigned in class. She does not seem to really believe that he is intelligent because of this (he has consistently scored in the 98/99th percentile on Cogat/IQ tests). He'll be taking private achievement tests to see if he qualifies for HCC. He finishes his work very quickly at home but at school is highly social and gets easily distracted by interacting with his peers rather than focusing on his work. He is not getting any accommodation regardless of Spectrum status.
Any suggestions about either helping child increase focus as school or for advocating for advanced work? Child is starting to say that he doesn't like school and it's not interesting. He shows a lot of interest in learning outside of school.
-Disappointed
No, that's hard, and why we moved schools. Our child was also required to complete work that was tedious and below level before she was allowed to move on to work that was appropriate- at which point she was bored and taxed from slogging through the busywork first. Does your school have walk to math? I think that is a good first step.
Getting kids to focus at school- I think that is a longer process. Sometimes appropriate level work can help, but more often that is really personality/developmental/maaaybe parenting can help. Like any behavioral trait. :/
Wtm
Disappointed:
Our Spectrum first grader also didn't qualify last year because of an achievement score. I would suggest when you get the private scores back, if he still doesn't qualify, consider analyzing even more specifically where he is weak. Then put together a study plan to address those areas. Finally, have your child re-tested every four months to monitor for improvement and adjust your plan accordingly. Then apply again next year. And keep supplementing at home. We send our child to school with books to read because we do not feel the ones at school are sufficiently challenging, and she reads them. We frequently modify the math homework to make it more challenging. Just remember that more and more kids qualify as they get older, so as long as you continue to supplement, the chances are he will eventually qualify.
- Make a Plan
Disappointed,
At 6 years old you child may actually be easily distracted. He's six.
My neighbor was a little like that as a child. In fact one teacher thought he had ADHD or something. No, he was just a young kid. Over the age of 6 to 10 he blossomed with his focus. And it was less about getting him challenging material, and more getting him an environment that made his diversions engaging and educational.
Now he's in high school and has been invited and attended some of the top math workshops in the country (those places where they breed IMO gold medalists). I've been around "gifted" kids all my life, and he's one of the brightest I've run across. And super well adjusted as a teenager.
He didn't do HCC in 1st grade. It would have been worse for him. He didn't have the focus at the time. That's OK.
Probably the one concrete thing I might suggest is to ask the teacher to let him work on advanced math concepts and progress through the curriculum, even if he doesn't finish in time. Maybe have him start with the hardest problems on assignments and work backwards, to assess how he's doing.
Unfortunately, I have hit a brick wall trying to have him work on harder material at school. I supplement some at home but there is not a lot of time to do much. He has already completed a second-grade math workbook and we are working on additional mental math strategies at home. He maxed out one of the subtests on the WISC relating to visual/spatial problem-solving and his strength seems to be math/strategic/logical thinking.
Teacher will not allow him to bring in own books during independent reading time either. They only do reading assessments a few times a year, which means every day he is picking from a small set of books at a certain level and reading them again and again, which may be why he has started spacing out more during reading time. The books he reads at home are several levels above what his teacher says is his 'just right' level.
Perhaps he will follow the same trend as my husband, who was not considered particularly bright until third grade where all of a sudden he was pronounced as 'gifted.'
-Disappointed
In some schools, it is just hard or impossible to get advanced work. Sometimes the more time you spend asking for advanced work, the more evidence the teacher will find to prove that your child isn't "gifted". And there are always ways of stretching out the curriculum ad nauseum so that no kid is ever deemed ready to move ahead. If your kid can already add two digit numbers in his/her head, that doesn't mean he/she knows all 10 different "strategies" to use to do it. For that type of issue, sticking to one math curriculum, in which a kid can clearly demonstrate their mastery of a unit, and implementing walk to math would really help. Schools that aren't doing both of those two things are probably going to really dig in their heels. In our experience, the label almost makes it worse :(
No one on this blog was the recipient of one of the 2000 letters? Are we going to end up with Test Results part 4?
Disappointed,
For a month straight, every time I asked our daughter what she had read in school, it was the same book. I asked the teacher to increase her level, and no response. So I consistently sent her to school with far more advanced books she had already read once at home and was familiar with and could read easily. I then started rewarding her whenever she read and finished one of the books we sent from home at school if should could answer questions about what she had read. Now she regularly reads 50 pages at school or more a day and I no longer need to reward her. I would dare any teacher to tell my child they are not allowed to read something that they can clearly read because its too advanced. That would be an immediate visit to the principal on my part, with further escalation as needed. Fortunately in our case the teacher never objected, and I doubt most teachers would be that stupid.
Regarding math, I assume whatever they do in class is just more practice for what she already knows. For the first few years its mostly about fact fluency anyway. I talked to the principal last year about math, but there didn't seem like anything we could do.
- Make a Plan
I would dare any teacher to tell my child they are not allowed to read something that they can clearly read because its too advanced. That would be an immediate visit to the principal on my part, with further escalation as needed.
Agree. For math, you may want to look into Beast Academy, from the Art of Problem Solving. You can view sample pages online.
https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/store/list/beast-academy
I received our letter today. Only the cogat screener score was given though my child took the full cogat on 1/30. It's impossible to know whether to appeal without all the information. What gives?
Fed up
I did not receive my child's eligiblity letter with today's mail. I guess we're not part of the 2000 and shall wait another week. :/
Fed up-you've got to be kidding!!! That is so frustrating!
Received a letter in the mail today. Dated March 8th, so that's when 3 week appeal period begins. Scores roughly in line for what I would have expected for my K kid who only took Cogat screener.
And on top of that the letter states not eligible for advanced learning even though his previous email inviting to fill cogat stated she was automatically eligible for spectrum.
Seriously fed up
Email Janine Madaffari now.
That is so bad, Fed up! Was the screener score they reported >94?
Screener score 97.
Spring 2015 MAP 98/99
fall 2015 MAP 88/91(tested on a Friday after 2:45!)
I ready had private achievement testing done since I thought there could be a chance AL would use those Fall scores against us.
Weird to say he isn't eligible for ANY AL with those scores. This shouldn't be that hard. Where are the fill CogAT scores they made my child sit through! I'll be really furious if spring scores are back up again too.
Seriously, seriously fed up!
Does anyone know what achievement test they will use for testing students who don't have one on record? They say it will only take an hour to complete. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
Our kindergartner was given the ITBS Reading Achievement test last year as the MAP was only given in the Spring. We were then told our kindergartner didn't even qualify for Spectrum when they clearly did. We sent an email and no response. So we formally appealed using the letter the district sent us with the clearly qualifying scores as the basis for the appeal, and they eventually fixed it. I wonder how many of those are in the appeals numbers.
Thank you for this blog. As the parent of a sixth grade child who has never undergone HCC testing it has been hard to decipher the process. We just received the same note as the 7:58 poster above. We have the same question: What is a one-hour achievement test? Is it a computer test? A paper test? I am familiar with some of them such as ITBS and W-J and now SBAC. But these are long tests, not 60 minute ones. I guess I feel put off because of the opacity of this process and I am imagining a 1-hour achievement test to be something dreamed up on the fly. My daughter has a disability in addition to the potential for strong achievement in school, and she could never walk into a standardized testing room with no time spent beforehand to walk her through the scenario. Any insight would be helpful.
Thank you.
My kid tested on the first testing date - 10/17 - still no letter.
We got our letter today. Test date 12/5, screener only. We already sent in an appeal with private scores. Surprisred at how low the screener score is, 75th percentile. Totally off from private scores, and MAP. Anyway, now on to worrying about the appeals process.
No indication on letter what the cutoff is for Spectrum decusions based on screener, fyi.
Still waiting.
Took the full Cogat on 1/30. Just like a couple others in this thread, got the following email yesterday: "Your child has cognitive scores within range of eligibility; however, he/she has no district administered achievement test scores available (administered March 1, 2015 or later) from which we can complete the evaluation." with the option to schedule a one-hour achievement test on 3/17 or 3/20.
We aren't exactly sure if "cognitive scores within range of eligibility" means 98th percentile or if this is still based on the screener score.
We also wish we knew which achievement test this will be. A staff member at the Cogat testing site thought they would be using the ITBS, but I'm hearing that's longer than an hour. Could it be the MAP?
For the younger kids, the achievement test was ITBS.
I have a question regarding the achievement section of the test results.
My daughter tested in December and we finally received the results yesterday. She's in 3rd grade.
My understanding from the letter is that in order to qualify for HCC, you must score in the 98th or 99th percentile in at least 2 categories on the CogAT AND you must score over the 95th percentile in achievement testing for Math and Reading.
My daughter scored 98 Verbal, 91 Quantitative and 98 Nonverbal on the CogAT.
She scored in the 98th percentile on the spring 2015 MAP for reading.
She scored only a 91st percentile on the spring 2015 MAP.
She hasn't taken a MAP test (school didn't offer) since Spring 2015.
Am I understanding correctly, that she qualified for HCC via her CogAT scores but isn't qualified based on her achievement testing, specifically the MAP test?
Has anyone ever done an appeal of the achievement testing? I've not opted her out of any testing.
Thanks for any insight!
newbie mom
Yes, that sounds like you're right, newbie mom. You can definitely get a private achievement test for math. They don't take very long and aren't as expensive as the complete IQ testing.
I received elgibility letters for my 1st and 3rd graders today-- both qualified for Spectrum. Assuming they'll use a kid's highest achievement scores (do they?),my 3rd grader would have qualified for HCC, except for a 93 on reading. 1st grader would have qualified, except he only scored 92 on the Cogat screener (wasn't offered full Cogat). Kind of curious about the screener... how high the score needs to be to be offered the full Cogat, how well screener scores correlate to full Cogat score, etc.
Number curious
The screener score needed to be a 94 (3-fold lower than the cutoff for the program, so top 2% for HCC = top 6% on screener). It doesn't seem like they've sent many letters yet to kids who took both the screener and the full Cogat but I'll be interested in the correlation too.
Can you imagine how extremely huge the cohort would be if they let in every student who had qualifying HCC scores in x and y, but did not qualify in the z? If they did well enough to qualify for HCC in the areas of strength, but did not qualify in areas where they are maybe not "highly capable" perhaps they do not meet the criterion. District testing does seem able to qualify kids who are highly capable in both math/quantitative and reading/verbal.
From experience, I've seen kids get into HCC with marginal scores and not feel highly successful for many years as they bring up the lower end of the class. Be careful what you wish for.
Does anyone know for sure what eligibility criteria Advanced Learning is using this year for HCC and Spectrum? The Advanced Learning website has two different versions of "SPS Superintendent Procedure 2190SP". One version was signed by Larry Nyland on 6/1/15 and there is another version marked Draft Clean" that is unsigned. The criteria are different in each.
1. Version signed by Larry Nyland on 6/1/15:
98th-plus in at least two areas on CogAT (e.g., verbal, quantitative, non-verbal, or composite scores.
2. Version Marked "Draft Clean"
98th-plus percentile on any one of the following CogAT Form 7 composite scores:
Verbal/Quantitative (VQ),
Quantitative/Nonverbal (QN), or
Verbal/Quantitative/Nonverbal (VQN)
"Newbie mom", perhaps you can tell from your letter what eligibility criteria are being used. And perhaps your daughter's scores CogAT scores are sufficient in either case.
Just Wondering....
We got our letter. Eligible for Spectrum with a screener score of 93 and MAP scores of 86 and 97. Testing date was 12/5.
@ Newbie Mom / March 12, 2016 at 3:27 PM
Your daughter's Verbal CogAT and Reading MAP map scores would qualify for HCC.
However, the 91 in Quantitative CogAT and 91st in MAP suggest that the HCC math curriculum would possibly be too much of a stretch for her, and though you might be able to petition successfully, I'd suggest you consider this carefully. My child's WISC-IV scores were 99th in everything but processing speed, and his GAI was over 99th %ile; their ITBS (achievement) had a core of 98th.
And the jump to pre-Algebra still required a bit of work on her part. And they have done fine (getting an A as of now, but started as a B early on). But it was a bit of work. I think they enjoy the challenge. But the fact is that they had to self-teach 6th and 7th grade math and jump into 8th, something that kids who had been in HCC since Elem had under their belts.
This is not meant to discourage a petition, but I'd agree with this:
"From experience, I've seen kids get into HCC with marginal scores and not feel highly successful for many years as they bring up the lower end of the class. Be careful what you wish for."
I know it's tempting, but I don't think I would petition for a child more than 1 point below the cut off. It isn't fun to be very highly intelligent and feel like the slow kid in class. It isn't fun, and it isn't fair to them.
Local Prof.
I must be in the out crowd, none of our friends discuss their kid's test scores. I'd have no idea how strong the correlation is to later on success let alone in a large enough samples to make a pronouncement here. - bemused
Another perspective...
Our first born never scored higher than 93 on the quant portion of the CogAt. We had a private assessment done because our school was not able/willing to provide a more challenging environment, and we wanted a more detailed picture of strengths and weaknesses. FSIQ and GAI were at 98/99, so we moved to APP in 4th grade. Now in 6th,and excelling in Algebra. The move was the best thing for our child. You know your child better than the blog readers here, so go with your gut.
Good luck!
@ March 12, 2016 at 8:13 PM
"I must be in the out crowd, none of our friends discuss their kid's test scores."
—Nor do mine. But discussing such openly and anonymously, on a board like this, is hardly "discussing test scores w/ friends." I do have a friend whose son came in 1 point below on both CogAT and achievement, and they didn't petition. Later told me that this was a horrible decision and they regretted it hugely. Their opening up about their own experience helped me prepare better for our own eventualities.
@ March 12, 2016 at 8:18 PM
"You know your child better than the blog readers here, so go with your gut."
—Absolutely. And this is why I recommend private testing if there are doubts w/ SPS tests.
I'm pretty comfortable appealing my daughters achievement scores. She's a very strong mathematician (calculations, complex problem solving, spatial reasoning, etc.) She's already working one year ahead and doing fantastic.
I strongly believe that her spring MAP score is not indicative of her achievement level and she hasn't taken a test since so it's hard to say if that day was truly indicative of her achievement level. MAP has a comical amount of variation.
Thanks for everyone's input on whether or not to test and the cautions against pushing too hard. It's all valid and is worth considering for any parent on the cusp.
I cannot tell from the letter which part is holding her back (I can only deduce from the scores and the elgibility criteria on the back of the letter.) I'll be calling in on Monday and talking with her teachers at the school level to see if we can figure it out. I'll make sure to check back and post what I learn.
newbie mom
Kindergartener who took full cogat on 1/30. Still no word.
-Eager K parent
Anonymous said...
Can you imagine how extremely huge the cohort would be if they let in every student who had qualifying HCC scores in x and y, but did not qualify in the z? If they did well enough to qualify for HCC in the areas of strength, but did not qualify in areas where they are maybe not "highly capable" perhaps they do not meet the criterion. District testing does seem able to qualify kids who are highly capable in both math/quantitative and reading/verbal.
March 12, 2016 at 4:15 PM
I agree. I do hope they maintain access to appeals, but I don't think it should be an automatic substitution of IQ results for COGAT results. I do think grade-normed private achievement tests should be always allowed, however.
This was on an earlier thread:
CogAT is not an IQ test. Intelligence tests differ from CogAT in two critical ways: 1) intelligence tests sample a broad range of abilities in addition to the reasoning abilities that CogAT measures, and 2) intelligence tests are normed on the entire population whereas CogAT is normed on that subset of students who attend school and can take a group-administered test.
I remember the district had planned to get rid of private testing for this year, then decided to postpone the decision. Has there been any developments on this?
If the CogAT is truly normed as the above poster suggests (sounds plausible, but I didn't realize), then it makes sense that CogAT scores would on average be lower than IQ scores as there is some preselection of students -- and I'd bet that the students not likely to be normed are on the bottom of the scale.
--Coe mom
For private testing, what test did your tester use? Our child was evaluated with the WISC-V, but I don't see that on the approved list, only WISC-IV. Is the list outdated?
-curious
We received the letter yesterday that our son did not qualify for Advanced Learning. He is in Kindergarten. The private test we had done (WPPSI-IV) by Dr. Provenzano put him well above the 90th percentile (though not a shoe-in for HCC). SPS had him testing via the Cog-AT screening test at the 69th percentile.
We will appeal (and send the private test result), but are wondering if we need to try and get his teacher to submit a recommendation or do anything regarding the MAP tests? The eligibility criteria state reading and math achievement tests aren't necessary for Advanced Learning (Spectrum or ALO) for kindergarteners, but that the Teacher Input should say "Advanced".
Any experience anyone has in this situation would be helpful!
Thanks!
Ali McKay
(McGilvra Elementary)
Yes - the WISC-IV is outdated as is the list on the AL website. Of course.
Ali,
You don't need anything other than the IQ testing report for Spectrum eligibility.
Anyone know if they mailed another batch of letters on Friday?
District says kids who have missing achievement tests have one week to fix it. Show up at 1 of 3 testing times announced by district or be disqualified from process. Madness. Wrong.
The process has got to conclude some time, though...
Letters in the mail today?
Waiting
Guess what! No letter today either. Infuriating, or grimly hilarious? Can't decide.
BOTH! Thanks for posting.
Waiting
It's officially mid-March. Nothing in the mail today.
It's mid-March, and not one single qualifying K-2 student has been notified. I just don't understand it.
Hello all, we received our letter yesterday (3/14 - though dated 3/8).
Our kindergartner had a 92 on coGat, and 99s on both math & reading. Does anyone with experience in this realm recommend we appeal? (It says she did not meet the criteria for HCC) But this is a child who was memorizing books prior to 2 and reading full books by 3, so we feel she is certainly in need of services. As with all parents here, I want her to be in an environment that meets her where she's at, while also balancing the risk of putting her into an environment that might be too advanced and cause stress. She qualified for spectrum but I hear these services are tantamount to a couple extra worksheets.. (I hope this is the wrong impression) : /
My other question is whether the HCC cohort for 1st grade is ONLY at Lincoln? Do I understand that right? (Have scoured SPS website and can't find anything) Do they offer HC services at other schools? (@ a spectrum school now) Just trying to figure out if we appeal (and qualify for HCC), if that means switching schools automatically. Thank you for any help anyone can offer.
- In the Dark
It feels like the K-2 kids who took both forms of the Cogat and are still waiting for their results have been mistreated this year.
In the Dark, did your child take the full cogAT and did they only provide you the screener score? They did that with us and even though my child scored >94 on the screener and has over 90 on all MAP he has taken they said he didn't qualify for anything (despite indicating he was automatically qualified for spectrum when he was invited to full CoGAT). BUT WHERE THE HECK ARE THE FULL CoGAT scores?? Something seems really fishy.
Wondering
Wondering, they made a mistake with your child's eligility. Did you try contacting them and did they respond?
@In the Dark, to appeal you'd need to do private testing for IQ. You'd have to be the judge of whether that's a good idea; from what you've said here, it sounds like it wouldn't be inappropriate, but she might also be served well in her current Spectrum school. As to your other question, HCC is offered only at 3 elementary schools: Cascadia@Lincoln, Thurgood Marshall, and Fairmount Park. If you're on the north end, then Lincoln would likely be your HCC school.
I wonder if the AL office lost the scores? Why is there no explanation for the delay in getting results? This is really maddening. Mid-march and no results on the full Cogat from Jan. 30th.
Have there been any other full Cogat tests scheduled?
Someone needs to be fired.
There is an interim AL director, just in the position a few weeks. There is no one to fire. How can anyone have any faith in this program , especially this admission process? Who the heck knows if they just won't throw up their arms and let in everyone who is kinda close or complains. Seems as reliable or even matches what they are currently doing. And then the overcrowding leading to splits and relocation and cries of unfairness as the whole HCC cohort gets even larger.
Well, they haven't sent letters to anyone who actually qualified yet. All they are doing now is encouraging people to give up on district testing and just get a private test and do an appeal.
@anon 2:28, we blog readers are very likely a small sample of the entire HCC testing universe. I am not sure we can make such claims. It is possible that the people whose kids qualify and who are fine with the outcome just aren't posting here. But, I hear your frustration.
Given the issues with mailing to wrong addresses/emailing incorrect results, one wonders what likelihood there is of names being mismatched with full CogAT scores? The level of incompetence and lack of leadership in what should be a relatively straightforward process is astounding.
The name-score relationship is provided in the scoring service data. If you were unsure of your reported result in your letter you could have AL check it.
Thank you so much for this! Yes, we'd qualify for the testing thru the district. Though that may be a bit pointless, given it sounds like they're drastically underfunded & understaffed - (not their fault - just an American-governmental-priorities-problem) and given it would be to test to give yet another child MORE services, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't really want more students testing into HCC. I genuinely do feel for the district but I also hear everyone's VERY justified frustrations.
Hi, asking some advice. My K student was not referred to the full Cogat and we got screener results of 63%ile this week. He has 98/98 on the winter MAP and private WISC-IV is 97%ile. He is a very independent, social kid and we knew the group format for the cogat would not be good for him. He is struggling with noncompliance/boredom in K. There's no way an appeal would get him into HCC, right? If this were you, what would you do?
Anon, no he wouldn't qualify for HCC. A lot of kids are bored in K, you just hope their teacher can differentiate enough to keep them somewhat engaged. Did you apply to a spectrum program? Some schools are somewhat supportive of advanced learners
Had the full COGAT on 3/6/16. Wondering when we would get the results?
Any news?
Not today, apparently (judging from my own mail).
My best guess (hope?) is that they are mailing another batch of eligibility letters today as they did last Wednesday, according to another poster. If so, maybe we'd receive them on Friday or Saturday. But maybe its silly to try to predict. If anyone gets a response from AL, please post. I think another update would be nice since it's mid-March by the legal definition ;/
That hope is for those who were tested on 1/30, btw.
Question about appeals. I have a child who scored high enough for HCC for cogat and math but missed reading (score was 92nd percentile). If we appeal with private testing that is 95th or above, will they receive eligibility? Does anyone know of people who hit all the scores through appeal and didn't get into the HCC Program? Thanks!
Isn't it just a numbers game? If you have the correct scores, whether by district testing, private testing or a combination, don't they have to let you in? And if they don't, couldn't you sue? Always been my impression that if you have the scores, you are in.
As of now, my understanding is just that @anon 12:05 and 11:39. You just need to demonstrate that your child has scored according to the cutoffs on a nationally normed test, whether it is CoGat/MAP or private testing, or some combination. If they change the appeals process next year, this might not hold.
Good luck!
Okay, NOW we’re in “hilarious” territory. This morning at 10:31 I sent a short, polite note to AL, just asking for a ballpark day/date when I should realistically expect the letter. I included my kid’s grade and testing date. At 10:33 (two minutes later!) I got this response (quoted here in full): "Your child’s name please.” (No signature or other niceties; sent from the generic “advlearn” email address.) At 10:34 (one minute later!) I replied with my child’s name and birthdate.
And I haven’t heard anything since.
I mean, come on. Now they’re really just screwing with us for fun, right? This is some kind of crazy psychology experiment, and we parents are the subjects?
(Just for continuity: meant to sign that "SouthEndMom" as usual. Distracted, as usual. :)
Yay! I just got an email saying my 1st grader got admitted to HCC! Took full cogat on 1/30. Hang in there everyone!
Coalback
I also got the email that my first grader is "eligible as Highly Capable". He took the full cogat on 1/30. They say that information is being sent on a rolling basis.
NE Mom
We got the same. SouthEndMom, hoping you've heard something by now. That's frustrating.
We just got the same email stating our first grader is eligible for HCC. Took the cogat on 1/30. Finally!
Has anyone received a decision on an appeal yet? Sorry if you haven't received your initial decision yet, but our three week window for appeal is almost up. They also say they will send out appeal decisions as they are received, but I kind of doubt it will go smoothly.
Waiting on an appeal
Just wondering if any K parents (taken full cogat on 1/30) received an email this afternoon stating eligible for HCC? Or is it only 1st grade families being notified via email today?
Just got the eligibility letter in email. The full COGAT was on 3/6. :)
We are a K family (full cogat 1/30). No email. No letter.
Did not get an email about eligibility (just the teasing one asking my child's name). But I already know my kiddo doesn't qualify for HCC (93 on one MAP), so maybe they're sending the acceptance letters first? (I'm just waiting to base my appeal decision on whether his CogAT qualifies.)
We just got the email notification for HCC eligibility. The full CogAT was on 1/30, 1st grader.
K family on 1/30 full cogat. Nothing yet.
Eager K parent
Mine was 1st grader too, from 3/6 cogat
My 4th grader scored 40 points lower on the cognitive part this year compared to last year (2015 - upper 90's, 2016 - 60's). Does anyone have experience with this?
Is it safe to assume AdvLearning will chalk it up to kid quirkiness?
Something seems way off to me and I don't know how to best approach it. Private testing is out of the question (we are FRL).
SouthDad
SouthDad, if you qualify for FRL, the district will cover the cost of private testing.
We FINALLY got an email today. First grader who took the full CogAT on 1/30.
On another note, it would have been nice if they had told us what our kids had scored on the screener before we had to decide whether to put them through the (really long) full test. It would have been helpful to know if they were close to 98 or not. If she had been at 94 or 95, I wouldn't have done the full one because chances are her score wasn't going to go up that much.
Incredulous Mom (that we finally got the results after all this!)
We finally got an email today, but no scores. First grader who took the full CogAT on 1/30.
In our situation the email without the scores is worthless. Certainly its not enough to decide on an appeal. And it doesn't make any difference regarding the school choice form.
Are they sending it just to start the clock on the appeals, or do others find it useful?
Just got our email confirming that our 1st grader qualified for HCC (3/6 full cogat). Now we need to decide if we move her again. We moved her from her reference school to a school with Spectrum when she tested into that program last year, and it has been an underwhelming experience so far. They do walk to math, but we came to find that they put her in same grade level, so she was getting no discernible benefit of being in that program. Her reference school implemented an ALO program with advanced learners all in the same classroom last year (but didn't tell anyone until school started in the fall, well after we had moved), which made that decision all the more regrettable. What I am hearing from most people on these boards is that HCC is suspect as well, so it's hard to tell if it's worth making her start all over again just to have similar disappointments.
Our child was in Spectrum in first and HCC in second and third. In our experience HCC was a huge improvement over Spectrum and I would argue that besides walk-to-math, the reality was Spectrum didn't really exist. One issue you will have if you stay in Spectrum is that many of the brightest will keep leaving each year for HCC as they qualify. Another issue will be that by fourth or fifth grade the lack of challenge in Spectrum will become even more pronounced. My primary concern about HCC is the upcoming "split" when the move from Lincoln, but I'm not losing sleep over it. The complaints about the lunch room and playground have never been an issue for us. But like any school, some teachers are better than others.
I just talked with someone at advanced learning. Based on my daughter's scores, she needs to take a math only achievement test to qualify for HCC.
At our school, in 3rd grade MAP isn't offered. Amplify doesn't count because it isn't a nationally normed test. So I'll need to have her take something else. In the next two weeks. Per the advanced learning website and verified on the phone, one of these tests will work. The MAP test can't be taken at school right now. The test window isn't open.
Woodcock-Johnson III Achievement, Form B (Grade Norms), the WIAT-II, WIAT-III, and the KTEA-II. ERBs, MAP, and other standardized nationally-normed reading and math achievement tests.
Newbie mom
i should add that she had passed everything else! The math was the only deficiency and the only thing needed in an appeal.
Newbie mom
Do you mind sharing your school? As parents are now faced with choices of moving/not moving, it would be great to know which schools might not implement the services they advertise.
Thinking of leaving our soon-to-be first grader in Spectrum at Hazel Wolf - does anyone know if anything is actually offered in the way of advanced curriculum in spectrum at Hazel Wolf? i get the impression from a lot of parents that Spectrum is a designation that doesn't necessarily include much as far as challenging material. Would love to hear if anyone has experience here? (Otherwise, it is a fantastic school with caring, engaged staff, a new purpose-built building, and tons of parent involvement). From what I gather at the three HCC options, they all seem to have older buildings, or lack certain programs or junior staff/high turnover.
I know there are serious pros and cons to each but, like any of you, I'm so afraid of moving her to an HCC program and then regretting it for all the other aspects of the school. (Or leaving her in a great school where she's potentially seriously under-challenged. (*need a life coach*) :)
Thank you!
-Unsure
Spectrum at HW is walk to math. Having talked to a wide number of parents with kids at both schools, I can confidently assert that staff is just as great at Cascadia. There was turnover in the split, but that has by and large calmed down. We do get new teachers every single year because we grow, and because we are guaranteed enrollment(and kids don't come in nice packages of 27 like they can at option schools), we are expecting more splits next year, because of state funding requiring it.
But I would leave your kid at HW. Cascadia is moving- maybe splitting, maybe not, next year. If they do split, there will be significant turmoil, and your kid might feel like they are starting over twice in two years. If it doesn't split, honestly it will be pretty bad the following year. 800 something 1-5th graders in a building made for 600 something. I would make it work for another year, and then see where it lands. 2nd or 3rd grade is a great time to move, if you do. Just when things start to ramp up, and you'll know better if the curriculum is inappropriate for your kid or not, whether maybe mild underchallenge is worth the community and other benefits, or whether your kid really needs to be more challenged to be happy at school. There are both kinds of kids; not every kid who qualifies for HCC is necessarily happiest there. Right now age differences and random personality profiles make such a difference in how your child seems to be doing relative to the class.
-sleeper
There was another date for full CogAT testing? When I asked about that, they told me there was only the 1/30 test date!
Given that we are still waiting for the results from the 1/30 test, if your child didn't take it until 3/6, I'm guessing you won't be getting results any time soon.
Some who tested 3/6 have received their results. Some who tested 1/30 (including my child) have not received results. It seems like maybe the 1st-graders are receiving theirs, but kindergarteners haven't gotten theirs yet?
(And for those playing along, after the anonymous AL staffer asked me for my child's name and I sent it, I never heard anything back. It would've been better if I'd gotten no response at all!)
Received an email today 3/17 saying our letter with scores would be mailed on Friday 3/18. First Grade 1/30 CogAT.
SouthEndMom, If I was looking for the best-case, I might wonder if maybe they are contacting your child's teacher about achievement in the area of the 93 MAP score? Was it reading? I've heard of them contacting teachers for reading level. MAP is not a great achievement test for reading in K.
Was it only the eligible first graders who received the emails from the 1/30 Cogat?
No, we received an email on 3/16 notifying us that our first grader who took the full Cogat on 1/30 remains ALO/Spectrum qualified but not HCC. No scores though.
It will be interesting, once we get the scores, to see how well the screener score predicted the full score. It would be nice if they could use only the screener for K-2.
Also will be curious to see how many kids who didn't get called back for the full CoGat were deemed eligible via private testing. For us, the screener was low compared to the WISC, which was at 99.9%
My son did not get past the Cogat screener and scored 99% in private testing. He's in Kindergarten. His MAP scores were also low - 70% for both reading and math, but that is to be expected since it's a computer-based test being administered to 5 year olds!
To be clear, how the screener predicts the WISC wouldn't be the same question as how the screener predicts the full Cogat, which is AL's designated assessment for qualification for HCC. That's the data I hope AL analyzes.
CogAT is not an IQ test. Intelligence tests differ from CogAT in two critical ways: 1) intelligence tests sample a broad range of abilities in addition to the reasoning abilities that CogAT measures, and 2) intelligence tests are normed on the entire population whereas CogAT is normed on that subset of students who attend school and can take a group-administered test.
Don't forget that the district administers the CogAT not because it's a better test or better identifies qualities they are looking for. They use the CogAT because it's cheap and does not require one-on-one testing.
IQ testing is more reliable at identifying gifted children. This is the reason it has been accepted for APP qualification in the past. If IQ test results are not accepted next year, it will be because not every family can access individual testing - not because district staff believe it's not reliable. Yet another example of making decisions based a desire to create the appearance of equity rather than the hope to identify as many of the children needing services as possible.
@anon 11:34. Several people have copy and pasted the bolded section above. Can you (or someone else) clarify what point you are trying to make with it? That CogAT is better somehow? I am truly curious.
Isn't the point just that they are different tests? With correlated results but not necessarily measuring the same capabilities?
Not that one is better. But is it rare that one school/system accepts either or? Nearby public districts use the Cogat while private schools use IQ.
Remember that one big variable affecting scores is one-on-one vs group testing. Not necessarily CogAT vs WISC.
Individual testing is considered to be more reliable than group testing.
We were also missed by the screener. 93 percentile, and the WISC scored my Kinder child as 99%.
Sure, for five or six yr olds. All that shows is that a lot of kids that age are too young to be taking a test of that length. Some kids might be mature enough at 5, some not until 7. Maybe doing the screener on the computer would be more comfortable for some, since they all take the MAP test.
But what on earth is wrong with a group test after that? It's not like the kids have to stand up in the middle of the room and announce their answers.
I know a kindergartner that took an extended nap during the one-shot, 2.5 hour CogAT this year. You think that's ever happened during private testing?
You can say that I'm cynical, but multiple times I've had our child bring home initial assessments where there were entire sections in error and asked him, "why is that all wrong" and had him say, "oh, I didn't understand the question" when he clearly knows all of the answers.
Teachers want to show progress. AL doesn't' need any more students in the program. They're not breaking any rules. Doesn't meant the results are reflective of the students' abilities though.
Just as another data point, my second grader got a 91 on the screener and overall 99.5 on the WISC-V. He's ADHD though and the solo test experience was way better for him
Closing this thread down.
This continues on: http://discussapp.blogspot.com/2016/03/2016-testing-results-thread-part-4.html
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