Saturday, February 2, 2013
Helping parents applying to APP
Looks like test scores are coming in the mail and parents new to APP are wondering what the scores mean, whether they should apply, and, in some cases, about the appeals process. Let's open a new thread, and please chime in if you have any questions or can answer any questions.
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286 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 286 of 286I was talking to somebody at a community meeting about how they figure out capacity. I guess I don't know how many kids actually appealed to qualify and did not come (most of the people I knew in my neighborhood school who appealed did not end up going, and I think they were successful), but this person had an approximate number of kids who were not currently qualified in February who would be coming in September- not very many beyond the number of kids who are qualified that they expected to come, but a few. Does that make sense? I assumed it was appeals, though I guess there are also people who move here in the summer and test.
Of course it is not always right(nor are they right about how many kids will take their spots), and then they split the program over the summer...
Just heard back from the psychologist with the GAI- 99.7%. Thanks for the help- now I won't worry.
I don't know about now, but I know that 2 years ago the vast majority of kids got in straight, not appeal.
Um, no, that's not true. There've always been lots and lots of appeals, ever since I first started hearing about these programs (which would have been more like 12 years ago than 2). And getting in without appealing doesn't mean there was no private testing involved. Plenty of parents have the testing done at a different time of year and send the scores in with the original application.
And among those who got in "straight," many have taken the CogAT more than once at different grade levels. Lots of kids get average or downright low scores one year and much better ones the next.
Helen Schinske
I'm just talking about what I heard from capacity people, and I only have the one data point from them. I have been hearing about appeals as long as I have known about the program, too. Obviously there are lots of appeals, but most kids entering the program at that time did not appeal to get in. I think the widespread perception that APP is a program that people buy their way into through excessive testing and connections is wrong and pernicious, and worth contradicting when it comes up. Most of the people I know who appealed did so for a good reason, and also mostly people do not need to. The test results are mostly accurate. Sometimes they are not.
I also don't notice a difference between the kids who appealed in and the kids who did not, which I mentioned. Obviously you don't like the term I used, but it is just a term to differentiate for this discussion.
I don't believe anyone on this thread insinuated that private testing equals buying one's way in to APP. If every single child was able to receive private testing instead of group testing it would do no disservice to the program.
For what it's worth, I have heard the teachers complain about the kids who are there on appeal. I have heard several teachers question whether some kids are appropriately placed in the program and they tend to blame it on admission by appeal.
At one point a few years ago, there were stats about appeals. I can no longer find them, but I think 40-50% were admitted by appeal.
The program is also heavily skewed toward the wealthy. When teachers were being cut at Lincoln in fall, the district published information about the demographics of the schools that showed that Lincoln had a total of 4 kids on free and reduced priced lunch.
Here's the link to the free and reduced lunch info for Lincoln:
http://www.seattleschools.org/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/1583136/File/Departmental%20Content/budget/wss/2013/lowelllincoln.pdf?sessionid=a59a58b29ac3251f135ab0ec71e60f9d
Not all appeals are created equal. An ethically conducted private IQ test should give no pause to anyone. Repeated testing or cherrypicking non-representative MAP scores is another story.
The gossip does not speak well for the teachers. If kids are not meeting standards there should be procedure.
Another APP parent
To the posters who commented on cherry-picking scores in order to qualify: my kindergartener tested 98th percentile on a privately-administered IQ test, a 98th percentile math on the Woodcock-Johnson test (but only a 79 verbal on Woodcock-Johnson) and a 95 reading on her winter 2013 MAP (but only an 89 math on winter 2013 MAP). Do you know if they will take a MAP score for one and a Woodcock-Johnson for the other??
We are uncertain as to whether we would put her in APP if she in fact does qualify. If we put her in Spectrum at her current school (View Ridge), does she lose the APP designation going forward? Would appreciate any advice. Thanks!
View Ridge Kindergarten Mom
@ pm,
You've heard teachers complain about the kids who get in on appeal? I'm curious to know why, and I have a few questions:
1. Do the kids who get in on appeal increase their class size?
2. Is the CogAT a "better cognitive test" for those kids who can "handle" APP? And how would we know? Is it assumed that those who score high enough on the CogAT would also score high enough on the WPPSI or the WISC?
3. Why would a psychologist (I can understand a parent) want to put a child in a position where s/he would not succeed? I don't see how this would benefit the psychologist.
Thank you!
The teachers that I have heard complain think that there are students in the program who can't keep up with the pace. In the upper grades, there are kids who haven't mastered the basics because the class moved too quickly. I have also heard one of my child's teachers complain that the spread in skill levels within the class makes it difficult to teach. There's a huge difference in academic ability between a kid who scores in the 98th percentile on an IQ test and a kid who scores in the 99.99th percentile. The former could probably be served well in a Spectrum program and the latter probably can't.
@ pm,
So APP should only be for kids who score in the 99.x percentile?
I have heard the teachers complain about the kids who are there on appeal.
That sounds like really unprofessional behavior. Also, surely teachers are NOT TOLD which students are there on appeal?
Helen Schinske
Strictly speaking, the greatest spread in skill levels is always going to be at the top. There's much more of a hard limit on how ignorant it's possible to be than on how knowledgeable it's possible to be.
Helen Schinske
'I have heard the teachers complain about the kids who are there on appeal.'
How would the teachers know who got in on appeal? Do the kids have a scarlet 'A' beside their name on the class lists ; )
The teachers do not have access to CogAT results. I guess they could make assumptions based on the MAP test results that they do have access to, but plenty of kids who enter on appeal do so because they performed suboptimally on the group CogAT despite having qualifying MAP scores. So teachers wouldn't know these kids had entered on appeal.
Kids who enter on appeal still have to attain the same percentiles on acheivement and cognitive scores so unless you are suggesting the licensed psychologists who administer in the tests routinely fake the results, why would the appeal-entry kids be any less able?
I think the assumption that only kids who enter on appeal struggle is erroneous - potentially any APP student could struggle in one or more areas for any number of reasons. Some kids are just stronger in some areas than others, some are dealing family/personal issues, some don't apply themselves. In every class (APP or not) some kids will be performing at the top and some at the bottom. Statistically there is even greater variation in the top (or bottom) 2% of IQs - some kids will have IQs in the 130-140 range and some will be 160-170. Same with achievement scores. Obviously that means there is a huge difference in ability which the classes have to cope with. Nethertheless, it is the norm throughout the US and in many other countries to utilize an IQ threshold of >/= 98th percentile and achievement thresholds ranging from >/=95 percentile to >/= 98th percentile for entry into these type of programs. SPS is not unusual in this regard.
Instead of making insinuations about kids who get on appeal perhaps we should be exploring why so many kids need go through the appeal process in order to get in.
Does this mean the identification process/testing process SPS uses is flawed?
How can we ensure that kids from less well-off families (that lack access to private testing) are equally able to appeal if the initial results are not representative of their true abilities (I know there is a process for FRL kids to appeal, but are they encouraged to do so? ) What about those that don't quite meet FRL level but certainly can't afford a few hundred $ for private testing when it could be money down the drain (because, contrary to popular belief, a private test does not guarantee of an APP-qualifying score)
How many kids who should be in the program are missing out because of unreliable CogAT scores?
Why do people persist in denigrating kids who get in on appeal - does it make them feel so superior knowing their kid didn't need an appeal??
Stats
From the current enrollment data, it appears that four of the five grades have more boys than girls, although first grade contains more girls than boys. Does anyone have an idea of why the gender balance swings so much? (55% girls in first grade down to 35% girls in fifth.) I can't find the previous year's APP data, so I can't tell if the trends are per class or if it's a trend as the kids advance in the program...or even reflective of the changes in the program (i.e., moving closer to the north end in the move from Lowell to Lincoln).
Another question about retention: does anyone know how many kids leave the school each year? Do teachers identify kids who are struggling and guide them toward another program?
What a bizarre conversation. Teachers should have no information about those students that got in on appeal. It frankly shouldn't matter. The admission is not based on how fast a child can work and teachers should expect a broad range of skill levels, even within APP.
RE: the appeals V. not discussion
If anyone feels like a kid is superior because they got high scores on the cogat and didn't appeal, they don't have all of the information.
I just heard from the psychologist that did our private testing and who used to work within the school district, that in fact, it is the kids who get in by thier COGAT scores that are not keeping up over time, NOT the the kids who get in on appeal (based on MAP scores over time)
Group testing using the COGAT is already known to be wonky. It can identify kids that may not really be that advanced and not identify kids that are.
Kindergartens are not expected to know how to read for the COGAT, so theoretically a child could get high scores on the test and not be able to read.
BUT, in order to appeal to get into APP, you need 98th percentile in IQ AND 95th in reading and math. For a kindergartener, that means reading and doing math at a second grade level. Having just gone through this with my kindergartener, I know that this is no small thing.
The COGAT doesn't actually even test that a kindergartener can read at a second grade level.
The bottom line is that testing to identify advanced learners is inherently flawed. There is no one test that will do the trick, and none of these scores measure other important things like motivation.
Oh, and did i mention how inequitable the test are because they are based on GRADE level NOT Age? that means that 6 year old kindergarteners have a year of learning on the summer birthday babies. I'd love to see the actual age distribtuion of those that qualified based on the COGAT....
Anyway...
Seattle's choice to use the Cogat first, and allow appeals based on the combination of IQ AND academic tests for reading an math, in fact, sets the bar higher for those making the appeals.
Yes, there is a major inequity in the system too, that since the COGAT doesn't neccessarily accurately identfy the gifted (particularly in the younger grades) then only those people who can afford to pay for the appeal will be able to appeal. Even further, you have to APPLY to be tested in the first place, so there are tons of kids that aren't even being tested because thier parents to take the steps to get them tested.
this is a HUGE inequity. The only way that it could be fixed was by offering the EXACT SAME individualized testing to ALL children.
But that is too expensive, so it won't happen. So Seattle's solution is to offer private testing for free to kids that get free or reduced lunch. Not a perfect solution, but one that offers something.
For another perspective, Lake Washington school district doesn't start thier gifted program until 2nd grade. AND they test EVERY kid in first grade with the COGAT. If they meet the specified cut off, they then have to take the ITBS and meet that cut off. They don't allow appeals at all.
Many other school districts try a myriad of other ways to accurately identify gifted learners, but I'm pretty sure that every single one of the approaches is flawed in one way or another.
But, here is what I really want to add to this conversation:
Why is so much time spent here trying to identify which kids are really worthy of APP? Seriously, the system is flawed, but the bar is set where it is set, and if a kid reaches that bar then what is the issue?
This bar (COGAT or APPEAL) says NOTHING about the stability of the home life, motivation of the kid, involvement of the parents or any of the other aspects that actually make kids succesful.
Can we stop arguing about the worthiness of the kids in APP and start talking about how best to support the school and district in providing the best possible education for all of them?
Even in a gifted classroom there will be a range of abilities. Some kids are super strong in math, for example, but not so much in reading. The are still gifted!
--Seriously.
Highly gifted kids can be underachievers too. It's the teachers' job to keep them engaged and teach them at the right level, not to label who the *real* gifted children are.
Irritated dad
That is true, to a point.
"Oh, and did i mention how inequitable the test are because they are based on GRADE level NOT Age? that means that 6 year old kindergarteners have a year of learning on the summer birthday babies."
That part doesn't bother me all that much (and I have July- and August-born kids). The grade level reflects where they'll fit in at school, after all. But all other things being equal, it may well be that older kids on average can sit still and pay attention to the test better, which is a whole different issue.
Helen Schinske
Shoot, my Kindergarten kid just got a 194 RIT on the Math MAP test. But, he barely missed the IQ cutoff for APP. We'll test him again next year, but I'm worried about keeping him engaged in math next year. Any advice?
Good Afternoon,
I'd like to learn more about Envision math, does anyone have any strong opinions for or against the curriculum?
Thank you,
Math Mom
I asked the principal at Thurgood Marshall if teachers received information about which children were admitted through private testing and which through district testing. She said that such information has never been made available to school staff in the nine years she has worked with APP students. She also said that schools don't see a single score from the testing process.
Rumor Control
Does the district require fall AND winter MAP scores in appeals? Does anyone know whether providing just one or the other is OK? We didn't do fall MAP and it's just now hitting me that maybe winter alone might not be accepted (even though the scores are fine).
-confused!
hMath Mom,
I've been looking into the difference between Everyday Math and Envision as my neighborhood school with Spectrum uses Everyday Math whereas Thurgood Marshall, where he could possibly attend the APP program, uses Envision.
The principal at TM loves Envision having switched a couple of years ago from Everyday Math. She said their behavioral issues during math period have significantly decreased since the switch, as frustration levels have decreased. She also said they have more time to go in-depthly into the lessons rather than flitting between topics, and that the kids gain a high level of comfort with math.
Everyday Math seems to take a more intuitive and creative approach to math, more the way you might do math in your head on a daily basis. It also allows heavy use of calculators. Complaints are that while it's great for younger kids, it's not adequately preparing them for more rigorous/traditional math in middle and high school. Something about it seems like setting low expectations, like a school offering courses in auto repair as a more "realistic" career path.
Perhaps that's not accurate but so far I'm not too impressed with Everyday Math. I've got a mathy kid who just eats up equations (in Kindergarten), and while I like the idea of an intuitive approach to math as one component of his math education, I also wouldn't want to see him struggle later on as I imagine he may always lean heavy toward math subjects.
Wondering if anyone else further into elementary has had a positive experience with Everyday Math. We will probably stick with our neighborhood school but wish the math was stronger.
Thanks!
-Trying to keep it local
For what it's worth, my child usually scored 98-99% on math MAP tests, but plateaued for 2 years at thurgood Marshall under the everyday math curriculum (with high percentiles but little to no improvement). This winter, my child scored 99% again, but the RIT score jumped about 40 points from last winter, much more than typical progression. Anecdotally, families are reporting big leaps in winter math MAP scores at Thurgood Marshall with the implementation of Envision. The MAP scores, standing alone, have little meaning or importance but they confirm what I already knew. My child is learning a lot of new material this year, and understanding the material well.
-- Happy with Envision
I'd be interested in the % of 5th grade TM students that met the 250 cutoff for 6th grade Algebra, versus the % of 5th grade Lincoln students. I'd also be interested in how non-APP students are doing with the Envision materials.
How is recess going at Lincoln? Does it satisfy the younger students' need to run around?
Recess mom
Greg,
How about a new thread about APP math curricula? Would love to see some discussion about Envision, Singapore Math, Everyday Math, etc. Wondering how this affects transitions between schools (ie. into APP from Gen Ed or Spectrum) and between Elementary/Middle School/High School. How about STEM and STEAM schools?
Thanks!
How about a broader thread on the APP curriculum: what it is, what it isn't, and how it varies from site to site (kind of like Spectrum...)?
The stated APP math curriculum is EDM 1st-3rd grades, then CMP2 4th-6th grades, then Discovering Algebra in 7th. Unless you are at Thurgood Marshall. APP@Lincoln is also taking a PBL approach with other subjects.
The stated middle school APP LA/SS curriculum (according to Washington MS):
6th grade - "Cradles of Civilization" (Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, and China)
7th grade - Greece, Rome, the Middle Ages, and the Age of Exploration
8th grade - World Geography and Washington State History concurrently with US History for the 1st semester, then "Foundations of World History" for 2nd semester
HIMS is saying they are changing the 8th grade sequence to WA State History 1st semester and US History for 2nd semester, and they will no longer do "Foundations of World History" in 8th grade. This would set them a year behind the WMS APP cohort in the history sequence at Garfield should WMS not change their sequence as well.
-what is APP?
I have a MAP-related question. My son, who consistently scored 98/99 on the reading MAP the first five go rounds, has gotten scores in the mid 80s the past two times he has taken it. These scores disqualified him from APP, but since he has always had math MAPs of 99 and qualifying CogAT scores, we had his reading achievement privately tested. He received APP eligible scores through private testing, and we have appealed.
My question is this: are these MAP scores likely uncovering a real deficiency in his reading progress, such that he would be unlikely to succeed in APP (and if so, why didn't it show up in the private assessment)? Or are they an artifact of an unreliable test? I don't want to move him to an environment where he would be likely to struggle, but he is bored with the curriculum in his current school. Any insight would be most welcome, as we try to decide what's right for him.
--Uncertain
Is there any record of how long he spent on the tests? My son's lowest MAP score by far turned out to be the time he spent a bare fifteen minutes on it (the minimum you can do and still have the score count, I believe). Also, look at the strand scores and see what kind of differences you find. I've noticed ups and downs with absolutely no rhyme or reason to them (e.g., he might do well on Strand X and poorly on Strand Y one time, and the other way around the next time). I figure scores like that represent the degree to which there's a lot of random variation.
Helen Schinske
Have you thought of checking the RIT questions chart, and seeing how accurate it seems based one what you know about what your student can do? Here- http://www.nwea.org/node/4863
I think the MAP has a lot of documented issues, so I wouldn't consider it dispositive at all. But if you look at that chart, and his scores do seem accurate, then you can use that information to decide if you want to try to catch him up before he enters or maybe give him another year in gen ed to develop skills before taking him to the accelerated program.
I should have said before that I see no reason at all to trust the MAP more than a private test, so in your shoes I would not hesitate to apply for APP.
Helen Schinske
I do not trust reading MAP scores for K-2, unless a child (like one of mine) is well into the 99s so you can't see the variation.
You know your child best. If they are at the top of their class and private scores (which I trust much more) bear that out, it sounds like they would do well in APP.
I would like to know more about art at Lincoln. I have heard some surprising things about the quality of the art classes and the behavior of the art teacher. I'm not asking whether the art is advanced. My concern is that it sounds not like art class at all, and unpleasant to boot. Though it isn't a large amount of the school time, art is important to my child.
My first grader has gone from wanting to be an artist when he grew up to hating every second of art and not even being willing to do the out of school classes we got to supplement because "art is not fun." At least for us it is pretty bad. :( I am happy with the school generally, but art has been a bad experience. The lessons do seem very very dry, and they don't do much creatively. There is a lot about right and wrong (technique building- I know some kids, especially not artistically inclined kids- like this). I think most of the younger grade kids are at least "meh" about it, and some of the kids at least like it. I have heard the same as you about him losing his temper at the older grades. But I don't have a kid in the older grades, so that's just gossip from me. There's a tour tomorrow, and you can go see what you'd think.
Thanks for the MAP feedback--very helpful! And I am interested in hearing more about this art situation too; we are coming from a school with a fantastic art teacher, so that is disappointing news.
--Uncertain
A teacher told me that one of the PCPs at Lincoln is going to get RIFd due to the predicted enrollment numbers at Lincoln next year. The art teacher is not planning to return and that position will be left unfilled.
To PM said:
I haven't heard about this yet. But my advice is to think about the fact that you can't really count on the art and music teachers at Lincoln. They come and go. And sometimes there is not even a class there. Like it happened with the 4th and 5th graders last year, there was no music class for them, only the band.
So please think about the academics when you choose your school for your student.
Also, by "tomorrow" I meant Wednesday. Sorry- I'd already switched over to Tuesday in my mind. No tour today (Tuesday).
We adored the art program when we toured last year. I doubt we would have made a different decision, but it was really disappointing to walk into this after such a wonderful program on the tour.
-art parent above
Does anyone have experience with or insight about enrolling a younger sibling of a Thurgood Marshall APP student in the Gen Ed Thurgood Marshall for Kindergarten? Our younger child may or may not qualify for APP when his time comes, but I do like the idea of having both my kids at the same school. Do other APP families go this route?
Thanks for any advice or opinions,
-Siblings
Anon @8:09am - those are good points. Parents are thinking about academics when they discuss the art teacher, though. Especially for the unusually sensitive kids, how they are treated by school staff can impact their academics (and for awhile down the road). It's true PCP staff have had turnover, but realistically Lincoln has seen high turnover with all types of teaching staff. So I do agree we have to accept that we're choosing a program, rather than aiming to get or avoid specific staff, but also I can see that for some families it may be important to get information about issues with specific staff, so that they can gauge the degree of impact on their individual kids. I think it's a worthwhile discussion. Here's a secondhand account I can offer, shared with me by a Lincoln 3rd grader who was nearly in tears relating it: The "teaching technique" method has some days meant insistence that his work be exactly copied, those who fail at it get yelled at, have had their artwork grabbed torn and thrown in the garbage.
To PM - I doubt very much that teachers are spending their time whispering simplistic declarations, to parents, in February, about enrollment-based RIFs in the fall. These "a teacher told me..." posts continue to help no one, especially the teachers. I doubt they appreciate these depictions.
There was an earlier post re "why more boys than girls in APP" - I asked a private-tester/psychologist acquaintance for her thought on that. Her two cents' was that at least some of that could be due to the classic "girls try to conform socially" while "boys act up" (or speak up). So the girls seem OK in their neighborhood school and don't get moved to APP, even though chances are good that it would likely be a great improvement for them. Something to think about for those of us with girls. My mom, who was a teacher for many years, and who of three sisters was the very highly gifted one, and raised 3 gifted kids, recommended to us last night that we include our daughter (who is 9) in our deliberations, in a no-pressure way. Basically, to explain that we're thinking about APP because we know she is so capable of learning, how important it is that she get to learn and think about highly interesting things in her school day, and to be with classmates who would like to talk and work on such things also, and to have teachers who want to help her to learn a lot of new things. She also suggested that we always err on the side of higher goals and harder standards over a seemingly fine social atmosphere. So, sharing my mom's input with all. :)
To the parent that asked about her "2E" kid that current is at Whittier but may move to Lincoln:
My child has an IEP too, and Lincoln for us has been supportive. In terms of resource room time and resource room teacher time, that is allocated per your IEP, and, whatever your allotment is, that is what your child will be receiving at Lincoln. That is your child's right, by law. If a whole lot of kids with IEPs or 504s came, then her portion of FTE would be adjusted to meet the needs of students.
We have found our principal and teachers to be supportive. Hope you were able to your today and caught the positive vibe!
If you find it to be the right fit? Then please come. The current resource room teacher is a gem!!
Contrary to a lot of weird erroneous urban myths, APP is a fantastic program for 2E kids, because both Es need to be taken care of, and while all schools can take care of one E, only APP can take care of both
Good luck!
To Pm - Why would one of the PCPs (or any teachers) get RIFd if enrollment is projected to grow by approx. 25 students next year? (I'm getting this number from today's PTA newsletter.)
Not sure. I see three possibilities:
1) The teacher that I spoke with had bad information (although the teacher had said that enrollment was predicted to be similar to the current year)
2) The school needs to drop a teacher by command from the district (because of their modification of the WSS due to our low FRL and SPED population)
3) The principal is trying to avoid the debacle of this fall and is planning on adding a PCP next fall if enrollment predictions are accurate.
We'll have to wait and see!
Thanks for the comments, input from Grandma . I think that makes a lot of sense
pm, said 2) The school needs to drop a teacher by command from the district (because of their modification of the WSS due to our low FRL and SPED population)
Here is the link to the Weighted Staffing Standards for 2013-14.
I admit I only read the updates (I've looked them over thoroughly in the past), but I don't see where PCP or class room teacher count is tied to FRL or Sped numbers. (Discretionary dollars have been I know.)
Something new that I hadn't heard about though is that they seem to be messing with the Assistant Principal (and counselor?) allocation depending on ELL/FRL numbers. It looks to me like some schools that used to get 1.0 or 0.5 APs may lose them if the school FRL and or ELL numbers aren't high enough.
I could be wrong though, because the actual projected allocation for TOPS (the school I know best) gives them a 1.0 AP even though the number of kids weighted by FRL and ELL (by my calculation) comes about 35 under the category to qualify for a full time AP. (They have always had a 1.0 AP, given an enrollment of 500+, but now it looks like that would only get them 0.5 AP, given their, significant, but not super high ELL and FRL rates.)
Appeals won't be mailed until Monday now. If they wait for the end of the day, families won't receive until Wednesday.
Re: Art at Lincoln this year. It's true that it is disappointing, uninspired and odd. What's particularly frustrating it that, for the two previous years, Lowell/Lincoln had a very creative, inspired art teacher who taught the kids the styles of great artists and held an art show of student work each year. She left at the end of the last year to work elsewhere, to the great disappointment of many of us.
I don't know how this year's teacher was chosen. He was a gen ed kindergarten teacher at Lowell Cap Hill the previous year, and apparently came from somewhere else before that. I have also heard that he is rigid in his demands and has been punitive to some kids. He doesn't appear to have many art supplies either. Everything about the class is spartan.
Why school leadership could not have lobbied for an appropriate replacement for our dynamic and inspired previous art teacher -- or better yet, convinced her to stay -- is one of the disappointments of this year.
I should add that the music teacher, however, is good, and both music and PE are well-liked classes at our house. The Lincoln schedule is such, though, that the kids get one of these classes only once every three weeks, alternating with art.
Is APP at Hamilton still worth it? Worth the disruption of going to a school larger, and more distant than our neighborhood option, and worth the effort of making new friends, and worth the risk of the whole program being relocated or split in the next year or two? Our child can get advanced as high as Algebra in the 6th grade in the neighborhood option, with a strong teacher. Other classes range from great to so-so. Staying at the neighborhood school closes the door on APP for HS. We could really use some input from Hamilton parents.
How good are LA/SS teachers?
How good is Algebra teacher?
How good is 6th grade science?
How well does the school support kids making the change to a rather large MS?
What's the administration like, in terms of leadership and in terms of solving a problem if you have one?
Does the school have a strong sense of identity? Our neighborhood school feels quite cohesive.
Are APP kids part of the school or seen as separate?
Thank you, for any info you can provide!
Considering HIMS
Suep, I am just curious because I don't know how it works: How much control does school administration have over who can be hired to replace an outgoing teacher?
To Considering HIMS:
You have quite a few questions. I am sorry that you didn't get the answers at the Open House last Thursday.
About the teachers: there are fantastic teachers and not so much. In each subject in each grade. It is the luck of the draw which one you will get each year.
But since this is our 3rd year at HIMS , I am happy to tell you that things are getting better. Slowly but surely.
And if your goal is to get to GHS or IHS in the APP program, IMHO it is really worthwhile to do it.
The school is really inclusive since some of the subjects are totally mixed between the programs and / or the grades. And the after school programs are mixed also, so my students got lot of new friends each year doing sports, music together.
We are happy at HIMS this year but only because in some subjects we are "like home schooling" our students. Lot of addition, explanation. But we feel this would be the case in our local MS also, so it is definitely not worse than that.
I hope I could answer most of your questions and maybe other parents will join and tell their own experience also. You can find lots of details on the HIMS homepage also so if you missed the Open House.
HIMS mom
HIMS Mom,
Thank you very much, that is the kind of information I am seeking.
Yes, we attended the open house, but there was no program at all, not even opening remarks. They gave out maps and said "go". The map didn't identify which rooms were for which subjects or grades, so it was kind of a scavenger hunt. We did manage to find two APP teachers who were able to answer questions. We cornered a couple of kids who also gave good information.
This was a far cry from what we've experienced elsewhere, and apparently from what was done at HIMS as recently as last year. While it may be tempting to discourage families to avoid further overcrowding, it leaves us with inadequate information to assess fit.
Thanks for any help you can give us!
Considering HIMS
I've been looking at the HIMS website and doing some reading. I found the school's climate survey — the responses of the teacehrs — concerning:
http://www.seattleschools.org/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/1583136/File/Departmental%20Content/siso/studclimate/2012/climatesurvey_2012_105.pdf
Only 51% trust the other teachers in the school?
Only 51% rate the principal as an effective instructional manager??
Anyone have any insight? I'm really not sure what to think.
Considering HIMS for APP
Considering HIMS
Mr Carter, our previous principal (the one who generated the climate survey you were looking at) left HIMS last year one day after school ended. Since August, we have a new Principal, Ms Cindy Watters and there are some changes in the school which hopefully will result a much better end of the year survey.
Hopeful
We have had mixed experiences with HIMS APP. It's hard to know how it compares to our neighborhood school. As another parent mentioned, there are fantastic teachers and not so much. In each subject in each grade. It is the luck of the draw which one you will get each year.
The issue is also with an APP curriculum that lacks definition and in some classes, texts consistent with APP at Washington. Administration will say APP has only been at Hamilton for 3 years, so they're still working it out...
Music and language classes have been good. Overall, my child likes the school itself. For us, the issues have been with specific APP classes. The "like home schooling" comment applies here as well.
current parent
To: Anonymous @ March 3, 2013 at 5:27 PM
I think it depends on the administrator.
I've known of principals who have said that a teacher was dumped on them and 'there was nothing they could do about it.'
But I also know of assertive principals who actively seek, lobby for and retain strong, inspired teachers who are well-suited to their school's needs.
At least to some extent, the amount of say in the matter seems to depend on how seasoned, respected and committed the principal is.
Regarding HIMS -- I second the sentiment that the school seems to be headed in a positive direction. The new principal makes a difference and the tensions from previous years seem to have lifted with her arrival.
Teachers vary in skill and inspiration level. There are some seriously weak ones on staff, and we lost two strong LA/SS teachers last year (one to illness, one left town). But I've heard great things about two of the new (APP) LA/SS teachers.
Science is not an HIMS strength, to put it mildly. Math teachers are top notch once you get past 6th grade. On a social level, the school seems to have a good, and pretty safe, vibe. I also second the notion that the APP curriculum is poorly defined and inconsistent. Some assignments seem un-engaging and not challenging enough, while others seem inappropriate in terms of maturity or complexity (overly both).
The school (district as whole?) seems to have a hard time finding the right material for these kids (mainly in LA/SS) that is at their level both intellectually and emotionally.
People rave about the music program and teachers (band and orchestra), and most of the language teachers are very good, I believe. One note: though HIMS offers 3 years of a foreign language, it is arguably only two years' worth of material stretched out over three years. This made for a pretty stagnant 7th grade (2nd year) of language in our house. That in turn means that even though Washington only offers 2 years of language, the end result may be the same.
So I guess I'm saying that HIMS is a mixed bag, but heading in the right direction. Wish they could improve science and fine-tune APP LA/SS.
Ohhh, I didn't realize that Cindy Watters is so new. Whew.
Suep, when you say math instruction gets better past 6th grade, do you mean once they get to Alg 1?
Also, is it still the plan next year to have so many early release PD days like this year? How has that been this year? Seems less than ideal, though it is certainly a need called out by the teacehrs in that same climate survey (and across the district).
Thanks.
Considering HIMS for APP
Anonymous said...
Appeals won't be mailed until Monday now. If they wait for the end of the day, families won't receive until Wednesday.
March 1, 2013 at 4:40 PM
Did you call and get that info? I have called the AL office a few times and left a message but no one ever returns the call.
If they were mailed yesterday, I hope we start getting letters today or tomorrow. Thanks for letting us know they went out late.
-M3
The information about the mailing date was posted on the SPS Advanced Learning page.
We received our mail and there was no letter today. I am interested to here if others appeals went as expected though!
Thanks to all who posted with perspectives and information on the program. We are still having a hard time deciding but you've given us a fuller picture and lots to think about.
Just got our letter. I sent in WPPSI results from last year and nothing else. I worried that I needed to list all of the reasons I believed APP to be the best fit for my child, but in the end the appeal was successful with his full rated score of 99.8%. His cogat scores were v 93, q 94 composite 95. His winter MAP scores were 93% in reading, 97% math. Seems like private testing is a helpful tool if you truly believe the APP environment to be best for your child. We used Provenzano.
We didn't get our appeal result letter today. Is anyone else still waiting? We're in Greenlake.
We are still waiting too. In View Ridge.
still waiting - phinney ridge.
We are in Fremont and got our letter today. Our appeal was successful (private testing scores were above the APP cut off).
We got our letter today (Ballard) and were successful with 98 full-scale private IQ testing and 99/99 MAP scores. (She had missed the CoGat by a point.) Good luck, everyone!
Very similar situation for us. Our appeal was granted based on WISC-IV 98 GAI and 98 FSIQ scores + 99/99 ITBS. (CogAT scores were v 97, q 92, and v-q composite 97. We're very relieved. Good luck!
Just curious, does anyone have any idea of the percentage of appeals that are accepted? I'm assuming most people would not submit an appeal unless they got qualifying scores on private testing or winter MAP, so that would make the percentage accepted would be quite high?
Curious
Got the letter (greenwood): successful appeal based strictly on scores - no real narrative with any arguments, just the required scores.
Wondering if anyone had any luck with a cognitive score of only 97, or only a 97 on the FSIQ but 98 on the GAI.
We live in Bryant, and we still didn't get a letter. ?
We live in View Ridge and still no letter in today's mail (Thursday). Seems very strange. Anyone else still waiting?
anon@2:56:
I don't think the nonverbal portion of the CogAT is used in district testing unless they are non-native speakers. I thought it was the nonverbal portion that was more visual-spatial, so I don't think the district testing is selecting for visual-spatial. They typically administer the quantitative and verbal portions, which are pretty straight up words and numbers.
another anon
Those who haven't received a letter: Did you confirm w/the Adv Learning office that they received your appeal? If not it could be worth a call tomorrow, since that is the last day of open enrollment. One year our daughter's enrollment form was deemed "never turned in" by us, only to be discovered later in some random Enrollment Services file. It took many phone calls to sort out. I'm sure that can happen with appeals letters also. I don't mean to worry you; I'd bet that for some reason your letter is just delayed in the mail. But an email to confirm receipt might be useful later, and put your mind at ease. Good luck.
we live in View Ridge and still haven't received a letter, but I exchanged emails with AL staff yesterday who confirmed that they had received our appeal, had mailed a letter and let me know what the results were.
I did email Adv Learning today after our mail came (with no appeal decision), and asked if they could at least confirm that our appeal was received, but no response. (The website says that for fastest service you should email, not call.)
I had hand delivered our appeal and placed it in the designated box with tons of other appeals, so I'm assuming they received it. Nevertheless, I do worry, given that we still have not received a letter.
Seems that View Ridge is a distant outpost.
Can't let this epic thread die on View Ridge as the last outpost. The letters came to VR yesterday.
This was a great thread. Thanks, everyone, for participating and helping.
You can keep posting here, but this thread is getting a little long and old now. Please feel free to use a more recent open thread to talk about whatever you want or, if there's a topic you'd like for full new thread, please use the open thread to request it.
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