[The survey appears to be live and running until 10/4. email communityengagement@seattleschools.org if you have any issues or think you should be invited.]
We are in the process of reviewing the Student Assignment Plan (SAP) and developing related future high school boundaries. In early November we will bring the recommended changes to the SAP to the School Board for approval and implementation in the 2018-19 school year.
The Student Assignment Plan guides student enrollment and ensures students have access to the services they need close to home. One area of the Student Assignment Plan that is under review is how we serve our high school advanced learners. Given the increase in enrollment across our district, the opening of Lincoln High School in 2019, and the upward trend in the number of students who are eligible for Advanced Learning services, we will be seeking your input on how to improve access to High School Advanced Learning opportunities. Any High School Advanced Learning changes made would not go into effect until the 2019-20 school year.
Background: Currently, eighth grade students designated as Highly Capable and who are enrolled in the middle school Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) program are automatically assigned to Garfield High School. Given the projected enrollment, Garfield High School’s capacity challenges will continue to grow. In addition, a task force is underway, preparing a set of recommendations for new high school boundary scenarios to accommodate the opening of Lincoln High School in northwest Seattle. High school HCC pathway(s) will influence the final high school boundaries.
As we make changes to the 2018-19 Student Assignment Plan and high school boundaries, we are exploring opportunities to address both the capacity issues at Garfield and increase advanced learning opportunities at high schools across the district.
Opportunity to Share Your Views: Related to these decisions, we are seeking to better understand the values and thoughts of our families, students, and staff about high school advanced learning options and related supports. As part of this comprehensive review, we have partnered with ThoughtExchange, an online tool, to facilitate a three step process to gather feedback. The process can be completed on any computer or mobile device, however, you will be required to create an account.
Early next week, you will be receiving an invitation to participate from ThoughtExchange. We will also post a schedule of additional community meetings that will include translation and ADA supports as well as a process timeline.
Please visit the Advanced Learning page for more information about the Advanced Learning Programming or you may direct questions to advlearn@seattleschools.org
If you have questions about this engagement, you may direct them to communityengagement@
Sincerely,
Wyeth Jessee
Chief of Student Supports
104 comments:
This does settle my question from the last post. Changes are being consider for 2019 not next year which is at least a sensible time frame.
Advanced Learners = Spectrum. He seems remarkably uneducated on this topic.
Will this be sent to families with elementary students?
"...however, you will be required to create an account"
Anyone else have an issue with that?
Blatant Dog Whistle: "He seems remarkably uneducated on this topic."
Please stop
Dear North End families,
Lincoln High School will be (re)opening in the fall of 2019 to address growing enrollment in our city. Boundaries for Lincoln have not yet been finalized, but work is underway to "build an innovation high school."
Community meeting for north end families on Oct 3, 6:30-8:00 @HIMS.
@ Please stop, how about you please stop with the baseless "dog whistle" accusations? There's no coded language in that comment. It is a straightforward comment on the fact that a district official with oversight authority doesn't seem to understand the basic, definitional, distinctions related to a piece of this work. Lynn is correct: that's remarkable.. and disappointing, and frustrating, and concerning. These are the people in charge of these efforts to change things, and how are we supposed to have any trust that they will make good decisions if they can't/don't/won't make the basic distinctions clear?
Is it a dog whistle if someone says--as lots of people did--that Trump is remarkably ignorant when it comes to healthcare?
tweety bird
He could be uneducated (doubtful), or he could believe HCC=advanced learners, and Spectrum=gen ed, as illustrated through policy changes he snuck through.
Fix AL
Yes, he could "believe" that. But since the district has official definitions, for use here and in our state reporting, his beliefs should not be the basis for his official communications, right?
What is an "innovation high school???"
Here's a link to some information on the "revisioning high school" process :http://www.seattleschools.org/cms/One.aspx?portalId=627&pageId=16191745
The Lincoln Prinicpal is leading this group. I attended the movie screening at West Seattle High School and observed the follow-up discussion. It's basically project based learning. The panel expressed a lot of disdain for AP courses. If your child might be attending Lincoln, I'd ask specific questions about how the school will determine how many AP classes will be offered and if they're going to require teachers to use project based learning.
Who decided Lincoln would be an "innovation" school in the first place?
Just out of curiosity, would PBL be used in place of advanced classes or would it be implemented in all classes?
My experience at the university level is that PBL can be very engaging for students but it can also spiral quickly out of control. I also worry that what I would call "foundational knowledge" ends up being phased out in programs like this. When I think of foundational knowledge, I am thinking the simple facts of how things work. Lots of school officials call this "coverage" I think. Acquiring a knowledge base in a particular subject can be really boring for some kids (since it can involve rote memorization) but it is necessary in order to know the types of good questions you need to ask to come up with a good project. Anyway, in the few PBL classes that I have participated in, the project takes so much time that the foundational knowledge is sacrificed. It requires a pretty motivated student to do well in these classes because they have to often research the foundational material themselves rather than have it "spoon fed" in a classroom setting. Maybe I am worrying needlessly. Surely SPS will get it right......with all their experience?? Right??
Hopeful
"Surely SPS will get it right..." Surely, you jest. After 10+ years in this district, I have little hope. @Hopeful, what you describe is my very concern. PBL sounds good, but gets reduced to making posters or other time sucking, make work type projects that take away from learning foundational skills and knowledge, but does little to deepen knowledge. The video also promotes internships and work experience - kind of what was promoted for IBX. How has that worked out? Internships, if they materialized, were found through the initiative of individual students.
The HS revisioning slides also seem to focus a lot on collaboration, which with PBL seems to suggest a lot of group projects. I have yet to hear of a group project in which everyone pulls their weight, learns something valuable, and is graded fairly. Anyone else?
If a north end HCC AP pathway school is to help address Garfield overcrowding, I suggest parents advocate that Roosevelt or Ballard being designated an HCC pathway school. I think one or the other school, not both as they need critical mass to offer as many sections as Garfield.
Both schools already have an array of AP classes. However, they would need to add sections to be on par with Garfield. Otherwise the kids would have lots of issues creating schedules.
Plans seem to be in process for Lincoln to be a Dual Language Immerson program pathway & neighborhood high school. They should consider pulling in more neighborhood students from Ballard & Roosevelt to fill Lincoln if the current plan means under enrollment.
Parents will likely have many ideas, and no idea will be 100% popular. If other parents feel the same, I suggest giving same feedback.
-An HCC parent
The email gives two sets of dates.
"In early November we will bring the recommended changes to the SAP to the School Board for approval and implementation in the 2018-19 school year."
There are changes in the pipeline for both 2018 and 2019.
Yeah! Make Roosevelt the north end HCC pathway school!! It is centrally located with fantastic offerings, and many HCC students have already selected to go there instead of deal with the commute to Garfield.
Let Lincoln and their Hale principal experiment with project based learning...(good luck!). They'll have a lot of interest from the Salmon Bay and Thornton Creek crowd.
Roosevelt HCC
I don't understand what the "dog whistle" comment is referring to. Wyeth Jessee is white, and for two years he has been leading SPS's fabulously successful transition to MTSS, a "framework designed to accelerate academic and social/emotional learning behaviors for all students through high quality instruction and intervention." He's been a huge success with this, because I'm sure we can all agree that the schools have accelerated academic behaviors for all advanced learners (just like they say in their promotional materials) through high quality instruction and intervention. Wait, didn't they get rid of Spectrum? So, there's not really any intervention for advanced learners anymore at all, is there? At least the high quality instruction is still there. But it's not like "advanced learners" have any kind of pathway. Advanced learners are assigned to high schools based on their address. There's no pathway. HCC is within the advanced learning dept. and HCC students do have a pathway. So it is weird that he's in charge of advanced learning services and doesn't understand who has a pathway and who doesn't. It's not dog whistling to point that out.
The district put him in charge of the Student Supports Division because they want to "ensure that each and every student has the right supports, matched to their unique strengths and needs." And that's awesome, because each and every student could use someone to look out for their unique strengths. Hopefully with a pathway to a high school that won't disdain them, and will have enough room in its master schedule to offer them actual college prep classes so that public school students in Seattle have a chance to get into competitive colleges and job markets throughout the country. Those opportunities shouldn't just be for students from Mercer Island and Bellevue and private schools. And it would be nice if the SAP didn't have my kid schlepping with traffic all the way to the other side of downtown twice a day for a *basic education* (<-- now that's a dog whistle...).
ha ha Anon@11:04 - of course I jest. I have full confidence that the SPS will be completely and thoroughly unable to institute PBL learning framework. I know first hand that it is extraordinarily difficult and takes many years of trial and error while the students endure the class experimentation until faculty get it up and running. Many TBL methods involve students grading each other to prevent students who are part of the group from coasting. In fact, at the UW, this had to be scrapped after the students threatened a revolt. They HATED that. Furthermore, the core, foundational material has to be delivered in a series of videos that the students watch at night prior to class because the class time involves so much discussion. Motivated students heading for professional careers will put up with this. High school students? Not in a large class setting - and probably not at all. It is a lot to ask of high school students. It can be effective but it can also be a highly inefficient method of teaching. Can the SPS do it. No. I guarantee students will be making posters while the teachers try to right the ship and find a heading.
Hopeful-Not
Based on some preliminary conversations I don't think the push to change the pathways is solely a single board members initiative and I think for now folks should treat this as more than a doomed trial balloon proposal.
It is definitely not a board member's idea. I have a staff email message from several years ago that suggests they start looking at doing just this. And like I said before, the recent staff-prepared slideshow uses very pro-disbandment language. It seems to be the direction downtown staff are leaning.
@Roosevelt HCC,
The kids in the current Roosevelt boundaries who attend Eckstein don't have access to world language until 7th grade, so it would be odd to send them to a language immersion high school, if that's what Lincoln is going to be.
KMG-365
If the push is to send students back to neighborhood schools (instead of north end HCC pathway school), they better make sure they can offer enough AP courses and sections at all 10 high schools. If they break up cohort & pathway schools, these kids will be less likely to get classes they will need. My prediction is their will be AP classes with too low enrollment at some schools and hence will be too expensive to run. I think this is a bad idea. Hopefully parents will give good feedback for a better solution.
-L
One option in the north end would be to allow HCC students from schools without the numbers to support enough AP classes to have a tiebreaker for admittance to Ingraham IB (I'm thinking Hale students for sure, maybe Lincoln if not enough funding for a full slate of AP classes.)
Same could be done in south end and possibly W.Seattle, so it could be district-wide.
Question is, what is the list of AP classes necessary to be "enough" and at what point can the district make this determination (I think it would need to be after open enrollment deadline but before assignments are released to families...
IB and AP are not interchangeable (also, IBX is no more). The IB diploma requirements can make it more difficult to advance in math and science, and colleges just don't give the same amount of credit for IB as they do for AP. I'd be concerned about a plan that came down to IB (maybe, possibly, depending on which way the wind was blowing) or nothing.
Good point. Maybe it shouldn't just be IB, but I don't know how there would be space at the other High Schools in the north who have AP (unless the tiebreaker is for AP OR IB at Ingraham and beef up Ingraham's AP offerings?) I just don't see Hale ever having enough of a critical mass of students to justify offering what I think of as the basics in AP offerings... Ingraham is getting 500 extra seats in 2019...
@SPS Mom-- That would likely be very hard to predict. In addition, IB and AP are very different. I think having a north end HCC pathway (keeping Garfield for south end & w. Seattle) adding AP sections to either Roosevelt or Ballard to be on par with Garfield is a manageable idea. Scheduling is the issue and Garfield has many more sections than any other school. There needs to be enough critical mass at a school for kids to make schedules easily.
-K
@SPS mom-- They are re-drawing high school boundaries to open Lincoln. They will be taking students from Ballard & Roosevelt reference areas & possible Ingraham to fill Lincoln a neighborhood school that will also have a magnet dual language pathway program. if this is done with intention, there will likely be enough room in either Roosevelt or Ballard for a north end HCC pathway.
-K
@SPS mom-- P.S Also, adding sections to a school that already offers AP courses (like Ballard or Roosevelt) rather than creating AP courses at a school that does not seems more logical to me. Some schools like Nathan Hale or Ingraham or possibly the new Lincoln (with a focus on dual language & project based learning) may not want to offer AP.
-K
At the Lincoln planning meeting, parents need to ask very pointed questions about the availability of AP classes.
If Lincoln will be a north end pathway school, program design for HCC cohort pathway has to be intentional. Garfield has tons of sections for ease of scheduling. HCC pathway students have priority registration for classes they need sequentially. This is NOT the case for example currently at Ballard or Roosevelt.
Open question - what does "ease of scheduling" mean in the current Garfield over-capacity context? Everything I read makes it sound like forecasting class schedules/trajectories is next to impossible.
Trying to decide if SPS will create any breathing space for my 8th grader heading there next year.
Based on earlier comments this year, the idea that Garfield does well at scheduling advanced classes because of large cohort sizes seems more debatable.
Does anyone know if all the missing classes were eventually fixed or did students end up going to Running Start instead to get various classes?
So, does this mean that rather than sending HCC students back to their reference high school, they are really only focusing on creating a north-end HCC high school? That would be a relief.
SE-HCC mom
Unfortunately no, at this point you can safely assume that all options are on the table and that the staff is actively thinking about dissolving the pathway just as they presented at the last board working session.
Do any of these staff members have AL students in the south end?
so this survey asks if we would like APP to be dismantled and eliminated like Spectrum was? Well, no.
I see Director Geary has a community meeting on Saturday from 1:00-2:30pm. Some people may be interested in discussing with her what should happen with the Roosevelt HC-qualified students...Garfield, shift to Lincoln or go to Roosevelt?
I have a 10th grader at Garfield and I am fairly certain that there is no priority registration for HCC students.
"Open question - what does "ease of scheduling" mean in the current Garfield over-capacity context? Everything I read makes it sound like forecasting class schedules/trajectories is next to impossible."
Yes, but that is due to the "current way over capacity" situation. Students are having issues at other schools as well. Under-enrollment or over-enrollment causes issues. In general, having more sections of classes allow students to make schedules easier. However, there have to be enough students needing/wanting the same classes to fill those sections. This is why a "right sized" group of kids needing the same classes (cohort) works best.
-Pat
Note the survey seems to be online and active. You should be getting mail to participate.
Can you please link? I can't find it.
I responded with some very pointed comments on how the district does not support Advanced Learning, how they dont meet the needs of these Special Education students, and how this whole survey is lip service to appease the community. They are going to listen and the district is going to try to end Advanced Learning.
Who received an invitation to participate in this survey? Is it only current SPS families and/or families with students in certain grades?
What about non-SPS community members? My student was in SPS elementary school, is now in private middle school, and will be returning to SPS for high school. As a tax payer and a past and future SPS member, shouldn't my viewpoint be just as valid? Perhaps even more valid than someone who is now in SPS but will be leaving for high school?
This district does such a poor job of community engagement.
gone girl
I got the email from Wyeth Jesse, but not a second email with a survey. Did anyone get a link to a survey due Oct 4th as Benjamin posted? UMmmmm.... this is not alot of time for feedback and someone should post the link if they received it here and on the HCC Facebook page.
-advanced learning parent
I'm not certain how tightly the survey weblinks are bound to an identity nor the schedule at which the mass emails are being sent. I was a bit surprised to see mine already knew which schools I was associated with. So for now please don't post any links.
Instead if you have questions email communityengagement@seattleschools.org
Ben
Can someone who takes the survey copy and share the questions, so those of us not included can see what it looks like--including whether or not it's using biased language?
Thanky
I was surprised that it funneled me directly into the Garfield discussion. So I guess although they say it's anonymous, it's not really?
Anyway, the three questions I got:
1. What are the most important things for us to understand as we consider changes to our high school advanced learning services?
2. What are some things we could put in place to increase high school advanced learning opportunities for more students?
3. What questions do you have about these possible changes?
Apparently I don't get to participate in the survey, but I'd probably include some version of these quick thoughts in my answers if I did... If anyone wants to include them for me, feel free!
1. Before making major changes to AL services, you should conduct a full evaluation of the current services to understand what's working and what's not. This should address very basic information (such as what exactly the current advanced learning services are, what is the curriculum, what is the fidelity of implementation, etc.), as well as outcomes (including student and parent satisfaction, and academic outcomes). There also needs to be an in-depth understanding of who participates and why, as well as who doesn't and why not. Changes to the services should be based on good data, data that help us to define the solutions.
2. To increase access to high school advanced learning opportunities you need to address both high school AND earlier grades. At high school, it's pretty straightforward--offer more advanced classes. Encourage kids to participate in them, and offer additional support if they need it. Don't "dumb the classes down", but rather help elevate the students to perform at a higher level if this is a "stretch" for them. Heck, set targets for teachers, encouraging them to identify good candidates and recruit x # of students to try honors or AP classes for the first time.
But if you want to really increase access to advanced learning opportunities you need to start much younger. By the time kids get to high school there are already huge disparities in academic performance and abilities, so it's too late to make much of a dent in that. Provide intensive support in the early grades so that students don't fall behind. This might mean smaller classes for groups that traditionally don't take up advanced classes, more support for their parents, special academies and/or summer school opportunities, etc. I don't know how exactly to do it, just that we need to do it sooner.
3. What questions do I have about the potential changes? Uh, what the potential changes under consideration actually are! (Or maybe that's in the survey introduction?) Are we talking changes to the services, or the pathways? In high school the services are essentially just AP classes. Are you planning to change that, adding new services or eliminating existing services? Or is the question really about whether or not to disband HCC pathways and send all students to neighborhood schools? If the latter, how will you ensure that all high schools can offer a full slate of appropriate classes, such as a wide variety of AP classes? It sounds like it could be expensive--do we have the funding for that?
Is there a set of core AP classes that would need to be offered at all schools, and if so, what is it? Would schools with higher demand be able to offer more, or for equity sake would they all have to offer the same set of options? (If the latter, would this also then extend to elective offerings, speciality academies and such, since that could also be an equity issue?).
For schools that would have small numbers of HC students, does the district no longer believe that having similar peers is important for adolescent social-emotional health and development?
How do these potential advanced learning changes fit with the new 24-credit requirement and the direction the district is leaning for dealing with that, (assuming there is or will be a plan at some point)? Is the district still considering a 3x5 schedule, which has been identified as potentially problematic for both IB and AP classes?
Does the district's primary concern re: current advanced learning services center on eligibility and enrollment disparities? If so, what other options might be available to address that directly? Has the district considered pilot programs to enroll students from underrepresented groups using lower cutoff scores to see if they can, with additional support, thrive in the program?
DisAPPointed
1. The AL survey was sent by a private company, Thoughtexchange, not from a district email address. I found it in my junk folder; you might look there, too.
2. The survey was sent to current HCC families with children in grades 5-12. If you have younger children, you might not have received it.
3. My survey link had a nine-digit code at the end of the IP address that linked me with Garfield High School. Your survey may have a different nine-digit code that links you with your oldest child's school.
Current parent here...did not get survey (checked junk mail as well).
Another current parent who did not get survey either! Is this a plan to limit parent feedback?
@DisAPPointed "If the latter, how will you ensure that all high schools can offer a full slate of appropriate classes, such as a wide variety of AP classes?"
It is not just the "wide variety" of AP classes that would be an issue. It is offering ENOUGH SECTIONS of each AP class to make scheduling work. A school offering 1-2 sections of AP courses will never work. Students take different electives, have different schedules etc.
Also, multiple AP sections all have to be full to run due to cost. That is the sticking point. Making a schedule easy. Also, cost to district etc. So you need a critical mass...or a cohort of kids needing/wanting the same classes.
-scheduling
@ scheduling, I agree. By "full slate" I meant full in variety and number of sections, but thanks for pointing out that it didn't come across that way.
DisAPP
Current Cascadia 5th grade family. I did not receive it, but I haven't checked with my partner who is the Official SPS Head Of Household. ::eyeroll.
FYI—as the Cascadia families experienced in the spring—it is possible for only one adult family member's email address to be the Official SPS Contact Email Address for the entire family. I'm not saying this is the case here, but I plan to check with my spouse tomorrow to see if he received anything while I have not.
O.K so several people I have checked with also did not receive the survey. Not in junk folders. One person thought it was coming out Oct 4th. Ridiculous.
- fed up
I received the survey and spent the time to enter comments, but found that many of them have been rejected because: "Your thought has been removed by the moderator because it is "rude or hurtful to a person or a group of people."
Here's an example of one of the rejected ones:
The HCC cannot thrive if it's spread across too many locations.
Like any special education program, HCC students require resources specialized to their situation. This isn't cost-effective if we dilute the program.
Rude? Hurtful? Or maybe just a point of view that clashes with the district's intentions. If the moderator isn't going to expose diverse points of view, why host a "forum"?
When they say:
1. What are the most important things for us to understand as we consider changes to our high school advanced learning services?
What do they mean? The only high school advanced learning service the district offers is to assign my Lake City child to Garfield. Right? Are there currently any other "services" being offered to high schoolers?
Parents--- Please give feedback that you have not received survey or that the survey is not taking genuine helpful comments. Anonymous 9:51AM, I would find a way to send those comments. That is helpful feedback and should not have been censored.
First lesson: don't use "special education" when describing HC. Just don't. Other than that, what the? What an Orwellian process.
Orwellian is right! Others who take the time to participate - please do check back to make sure your comments aren't suppressed. There is no email notification about the moderator rejections. You actually have to go back to the screen where you can view your own comments to notice that they didn't get through.
Maybe they should rename it Thought Police?
FYI, I just heard back from the district and the survey is being sent to ALL families with SPS students grades 5-12, regardless of HCC/AL eligibility or participation. I hope it doesn't turn into a public opinion poll on advanced learning programs/services...
Asked Them
I just took the survey. I determined from the questions and audience sent (not HCC but everyone) is to gather strength for their dismantling HCC at high school proposal. I read " offer advanced learning at all high schools etc" in feedback to questions etc.
Sounds super great in theory, but in practice this district would not be able to give all high schools what exists currently at Garfield. No high school (even Ballard & Roosevelt) will have as many sections of courses.
For equity, high schools without a large HCC pop will be given funding to run AP courses with low enrollment. This will take funding away from the other schools. In addition students at those schools will have 1-2 sections of a course and maybe not a full array of offerings.
What you will get is not enough sections and scheduling conflicts for all. I assure you this is the case. If they break up HCC cohort pathways, it will mean far far less flexibility in scheduling and thus many less AP courses taken. Most likely it will mean 3-5AP courses depending upon high school. Garfield enables kids by design to take 9-10AP as a natural progression in contrast.
- advocate against it
I have a current HCC senior at Garfield and can confidently say that there is no preferential or facilitated scheduling for HCC students for classes in progression. Many of the students are having to go to running start to get required classes (math, sciences). We have had this as a recurring problem for 4 years now. Some years, it takes diligence, the student themselves looking through the master schedule to find out potential options to switch classes. However, we have had challenges getting the counselors to help with this.
Are you able to share some comments from the survey?
@ 1:08PM. Several different families with kids who graduated from Garfield this past year told me their kid did not have any issues getting core classes, all three ended up taking 9-10 AP classes.
However, you are not alone. Over- enrollment is causing issues not just at Garfield, but also at Ballard & Roosevelt regarding class scheduling. Parents from all of these schools have posted kids are having issues. Some students at all of these schools are having issues. Yet a parents I spoke to the other day who has two at Ballard told me her kids have had no issue. I guess some are luckier than others.
If there is no pathway, then some HC students (who live in HS assignment zones that have a lot of other HC students) will end up having access to a relatively large number of more advanced classes and other HC students (who live in HS assignment zones that do not have a lot of other HC students) will end up not having access to many advanced classes. I don't really see how there's any equity in that.
To get into an assignment zone with more HC students, I would literally have to rent out my house and move two blocks. How is that equitable?
SPS would really benefit from accepting that AL needs are real needs that are causing real families to make real choices about where and how to educate their children. The enrollment patterns make much more sense when you are able to see the "invisible" AL needs that are driving so many families' choices. Some option schools have such long wait lists because families have tried the assignment schools and experienced first hand that their children's educational needs as advanced learners are not being met. That's not the only reason that families leave their assignment schools, but if they studied why families were leaving, they would find out that it is a huge reason causing lots of children to churn through schools as their families figure out that AL needs will not be met.
These AL needs don't just magically disappear in high school. They continue to steer many families' decisions. Whether or not the schools meet the educational needs or even acknowledge that they exist.
Yes Nomadic parent-- Exactly why they cannot dismantle a program and then lie to people and tell them they will offer this program at every school. Can Seattle Public Schools really afford to offer the same program at every school? Of course not.
The district will be making an "idealistic" argument that will appeal to parents. Parents need to see beyond the lie that this would "expand advanced learning offerings". In practice it will actually limit offerings. But people who do not understand or think deeply about how programs work, classes are scheduled etc, may not understand.
-S
-
Nomadic parent is correct. The plan to eliminate the pathway screws over HC students in the peripheral areas with low numbers of students needing advanced level courses. The hot zones of HC will be fine and will likely be happy their students don't have to travel an hour across town to an unwelcome environment for AP courses that are hit or miss as to whether you can even get in. With regards to Hale's principal not wanting to adjust their program to accommodate advanced learners, I suppose they will rely on RS.
Is Middle School going to be looked at, too? Curious if they will still offer a MS HCC pathway.
Road 2
@Road 2 -Actually the HC hot zones won't be as good as Garfield either. "Fine" is also very debatable. For example, the cohort would be split amongst Ballard, Roosevelt, Lincoln, Ingraham, Nathan Hale in north end. There will also be a split among all schools in the south end. There will be less sections and schedule flexibility even in "hot spots" than Garfield. You need critical mass and grouping of students to have a program (any program) that works as well as Garfield has historically (before over enrollment).
They do not have the budget to recreate equal programs at all schools. Under-enrollment does not work in SPS & neither does over-enrollment for class scheduling.
- honors for none
Nomadic parent, I hear you. Strangely our zone was redrawn to go to RHS. I had been thinking of renting out our house and renting a place near GHS to continue there. But, the big if, is which school would be better for my kid if GHS is no longer the pathway HCC high school.
I agree with the multiple posters who are concerned that eliminating the HCC pathway will ultimately result in reduced access to AP courses for HC students, however, I want to point out again that HC students are not the only ones who take AP courses. Under the current pathway system, non-HCC pathway students, unless they happen to live in the Garfield area, have decreased access. If they're at Ballard or Roosevelt they may still have decent access, but what about if they are elsewhere?
Nomadic Parent said: If there is no pathway, then some HC students (who live in HS assignment zones that have a lot of other HC students) will end up having access to a relatively large number of more advanced classes and other HC students (who live in HS assignment zones that do not have a lot of other HC students) will end up not having access to many advanced classes. I don't really see how there's any equity in that.
That could easily be flipped to address the current situation: "If there CONTINUES TO BE A pathway, then GEN ED students who live in the HCC PATHWAY SCHOOL assignment zone will CONTINUE having access to a relatively large number of more advanced classes, and other GEN ED students (who live in NON-HCC PATHWAY NEIGHBORHOOD SCHOOL assignment zones that do not have a lot of other HC students) will CONTINUE not having access to many advanced classes. I don't really see how there's any equity in that."
That's the issue we're up against. If we can't provide everyone with access to everything--which we can't--there are winners and losers. On this blog, we support access for our HC children because we know how important it is. But for those who maybe don't have access to many AP classes and would like more, the current situation feels unfair, and they would probably like to see things spread around more evenly.
"Equity" is the focus now, and equity demands that everyone, whether HC-identified or not, get appropriate access to advanced courses. HCC pathway students might, in general, have more need/desires for AP classes, but they aren't the only ones. Focusing exclusively on HCC students when citing equity concerns seems tone deaf to me, and I fear it creates more animosity toward the program/services. So how do we go about trying to solve this issue for all types of students? Is there a way to ensure that HCC students can get the access they need (e.g., via large cohort) while also ensuring that GE students who want more AP access can get it? Can GE students who don't have appropriate offerings at neighborhood schools get special access to schools that provide expanded access? Can we (the district? HCC parent?) provide mitigation funding to provide for their transportation, or to provide AP classes even if there is limited demand? Is there a compromise that can be worked out, such as all schools guaranteeing x, y and z to anyone who wants, with perhaps a cap (but still nice and high) on what others can take elsewhere?
These are just my ramblings, of course. But I worry when I see all the "it's not fair to HCC students..." postings. The current situation isn't fair to everyone, either. So let's be creative--or if we don't have any better ideas, let's at least be very sensitive in how we make our case.
DisAPPointed
I agree with DisAPPointed about the word equity.
My personal experience and opinion is that equity is a concept that does not fly for HCC kids. I tried to use that word when advocating for my kid who had PE waiver/graduation problems, and it was not received with any effectiveness. Equity is not a concept administrators think of when they think of HCC students. So, like all parents who want to find the best match for our own kids' needs, at the same time thinking of other kids' needs, we need to use words that will be well-received.
@DisAPPointed- I completely disagree with you. Advanced Learning classes are "basic education" for HCC identified kids. General ed kids receive their own basic education and some have access to more than basic education. Offering the same education for all is not equitable for all.
In addition, general ed kids also have running start, STEM and IB options at multiple schools including Rainier beach, Ingraham, Sealth etc.
Many HCC would be in a position of "repeating classes" in high school if a pathway is elimimated. This is not equitable.
General Ed and HCC kids needs are different. State Law in most states recognize gifted education. Some even recognize it as special education, including the state where I grew up. It sounds like you do not support these kids and their need for a basic education. I am wondering why you are on this blog?
- MF
[Moderator Note] I'm going to step in before we go too far down this road to remind everyone to avoid ad hominem attacks. Let's assume the best of each other even when we don't agree.
Geez, MF, have you read any of my past posts? I absolutely support these kids, and have for years. Where did I ever say anything about offering the same education for all? Did you even read my second-to-last paragraph? Whatever, I have thick skin.
Whether or not you're really listening to me, I hope you'll pay closer attention to the bigger picture in this district. Arguing for "equity" for HCC is not likely to get you anywhere--or at least nowhere you want to go. The more you try to link equity and HCC, the more the focus is on disparities in identification, elitism, entitlement, obnoxious parents, racism, trying to preserve advantages, etc. For the most part those charges are untrue, but they are out there...and they will grow...and the district is listening...
I think you ARE on the right track with your comment about basic education. Focus on that instead of a very one-sided view of "equity."
DisAPPointed
@DisAppointed-- Sorry, I apologize. I misread your post. I did not truly understand that you were arguing against using the wording "equity" for HCC program advocacy. I am really tired of defending HCC kids need for a basic education that is tailored to their needs. I am also tired of hearing HCC parents who are intimidated to advocate for their kids needs. They truly need to be enpowered in my opinion. Use different language fine.
I also do feel general students have options/special programs available to them, as I listed above. In addition to what I listed, they do have AP courses at their schools. However, in the case of some schools, not as many as Garfield.
It's anecdotal, but friends general ed kids stated they would never take 9-10 AP courses. Quite happy with taking a few though. Many Many AP courses are not what every school or general ed students want. Are students & families demanding this or is it a guise and the way the district dismantles HCC pathways? I think the latter.
-MF
@ MF, I think there may be a small number of GE kids who would like to take more (or different) AP classes than their school offers, but I agree that the problem does not seem to be large. Rather, I think the district, and probably some principals, see that there are big participation differences re: AP classes, and they immediately think it's a problem to be solved. There's nothing inherently wrong with more advanced or academically gifted students taking more advanced courses in high school, but when there are associated racial disparities that gets their attention. I agree that it should, but it feels like they're not asking the right questions or looking for where/when/how best to address the disparities. Disparities in high school AP participation are, for the most part, NOT due to problems with high school AP class availability, but rather with problems delivering effective, challenging education in earlier grades (to set more kids up for taking AP classes), and with problems in identifying students from underrepresented groups for advanced learning services like HCC. If we had a situation in which HCC demographics perfectly mirrored SPS demographics, I don't think people would be so worried that HCC students were taking more AP classes than other students--it's what you'd expect. But SPS being SPS, they see disparities and think "inequity!" and then try to make it look like they're doing something. Eliminating the HCC pathways would make things look more equitable, even if actually changes nothing about who wants to take or is prepared to take AP classes.
DisAPP
Some fodor for the value of early education: https://mobile-nytimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/books/understanding-early-education.amp.html
The survey is TERRIBLE. Questions: What are the most important things for us to understand as we consider changes to our high school advanced learning services? What are some things we could put in place to increase high school advanced learning opportunities for more students? What questions do you have about these possible changes? And then the format is weird - you rate what other people wrote. Community engagement???
NE Mom says, "Equity is not a concept administrators think of when they think of HCC students. So, like all parents who want to find the best match for our own kids' needs, at the same time thinking of other kids' needs, we need to use words that will be well-received."
This is precisely the problem. There are no words we can use to talk about divergent academic needs. We can talk about placing kids into classes based on age or physical size or where the overcrowding is least severe. But not academic needs.
There are teachers who erroneously believe that the overexcitabilities and/or anxiety that so many gifted kids have come from parental pushing. But we're not pushing. The overexcitabilities and/or anxiety are collateral issues of the wiring that causes the giftedness. Parents are scrambling to keep up.
It's so hard to talk about academic and educational needs of students with schools when you're not allowed to use any of the words for what you're talking about. Because, shhhh, our children aren't real. Shhhhhh.
I will try hard not to use the word equity. I'll tuck it in there alongside all the other words I am trying so hard not to use. Some of them are pretty choice.
@ Nomadic Parent, I get it. It's not fair that we are often not free to talk about our kids' needs in the way other parents are allowed to do, but that's the reality. It's hard, and it sucks. But we soldier onward, doing what we can to provide for our children's academic and mental health needs in a world that often dismisses them, resents them, insults them. Your kid is lucky to have you on their side.
mama bear
@DisAppointed "Eliminating the HCC pathways would make things look more equitable, even if actually changes nothing about who wants to take or is prepared to take AP classes."
We will have disparities amongst high schools no matter what as we have more and less affluent populations at various high schools. We have more racial and economic segregation by going to neighborhood schools. However, our traffic is so bad, there are other factors to consider. Taking HCC out of Garfield IMO makes things even more worse not better. There will be even more racial and economic segregation. Lincoln and Roosevelt (already affluent) will be very affluent schools.
-DS
@ DS, I agree that, in actuality, such a move would likely exacerbate disparities. However, it will LOOK, on the surface (which is where most people look), more equitable, because "those HCC kids" won't have options that other students don't have now, and they won't have access to a program that provides increased access to AP classes. I know, I know... that ignores the fact that they have increased NEED/DEMAND for that increased access to AP classes, but nobody cares about that because people confuse equity and equality. Plus, people who don't really understand the needs of highly academically gifted students feel like they are getting something "extra", and it makes them mad. If a neighborhood school is good enough for my kid, it ought to be good enough for HCC kids, too!
DisAPPointed
I, for one, hope the HCC kids mostly stay out of my daughter's high school. First of all because my main concern right now is the crazy overcrowding. But second of all, we've got a lot of kids doing great here. They are at the top. If you bring a bunch of high scoring, test acing, smart as a whip HCC kids in here, they are going to take the majority of the honor and glory away. They'll squeeze my kid out of the top 10% of her class ranking. Send 'em to Ingraham, I say.
Just got one of my responses to Q1 removed because it is deemed "rude or hurtful to a person or a group of people." I said, "HCC seems to be held hostage to all of SPS' fears, plans, and conflicts around equity. That's crazy. While HCC is growing, it's still a small portion of SPS students."
Has anyone else gotten comments removed? My guess is that there's some algorithm that didn't like the word crazy. Or am I being too generous?
Yes someone else posted they had very reasonable and helpful comments removed. Why don't you change your wording or send your comments to the community engagement email address. They posted the below Sept 28th on this thread:
"Here's an example of one of the rejected ones:
The HCC cannot thrive if it's spread across too many locations.
Like any special education program, HCC students require resources specialized to their situation. This isn't cost-effective if we dilute the program.
Rude? Hurtful? Or maybe just a point of view that clashes with the district's intentions. If the moderator isn't going to expose diverse points of view, why host a "forum"?
-
@ Roosevelt Dad, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or honest. Could be taken either way...
Unclear
I'm actually being honest. I care far more about the cost of my daughter' participating in band (whoa) than I do about this HCC thing. I don't see what the big deal is. Those HCC kids left our elementary school (Bryant) in droves. They weren't at Eckstein (I don't know where they went, but somewhere other than Eckstein) and they're mostly not at Roosevelt. Maybe a few? Anyway, we haven't missed them. We've been getting on fine. I'm being honest when I say that we don't need a bunch high GPA, valedictorian-coveting, academic allstars flooding back into our school at the last minute to make the place more crowded and steal all the academic honors from the rest of our kids. The other parents don't want that either.
Roosevelt Dad, They really aren't like that. My GHS 2016 grad was in the cohort for 12 years and I did not see competitiveness or desire to be valedictorian amongst her friends. My GHS 2021 may end up at RHS, but that is not a very nice welcome. When splits and moves happen people should take the high road with students.Like when much of HIMS orchestra was split off to REMS their orchestra teacher was wishing them the best not lamenting their departure or blaming.
My not very competitive HCC kid has been loving Roosevelt, and I hope he never hears any of that attitude about his not being welcome at his own neighborhood school. The word you are looking for btw is "earn" and not "steal."
HC students: you're damned if you do (cohort), you're damned if you don't. So much bs going around that ultimately brings down everyone.
@ Roosevelt Dad, thanks, I suppose, for your honesty, but did you ever stop to think about how that sounds? It's ironic that HCC families are often accused of being selfish when they are just looking for appropriate education (e.g., not "learning" things you learned three years ago), whereas when GE parents say they don't want HC students there, or when they actively fight co-location, there's no public outrage because that just makes sense, right? Nice "don't let the door hit ya on the way out" attitude, too.
But Roosevelt Dad has perhaps supplied the best argument yet for maintaining high school HCC pathways: by consolidating all those annoying HCC kids in a couple HCC-heavy schools, not only will most GE kids not have deal with the horror of having them as part of their schools, but as a bonus we can really stick it to HCC kids and their families because that means fewer of them can be valedictorian! Let them all fight it out for a couple spots instead of letting them steal more spots by infiltrating all the other schools. People are so focused on their desire to bring these kids down a notch that they forgot to think it through all the way and realize that if they dismantle the pathways they' might have more of these kids around, in their very own schools, and nobody wants that!
Sorry, I'm
feeling bitter
@Roosevelt dad " First of all because my main concern right now is the crazy overcrowding." Roosevelt dad-- They would not send the HCC kids back to neighborhood schools until 2019 when Lincoln opens. The boundary map H chosen to go forward by the task force assumes approx 1600 with HCC in the school in 2019.
- gj
Are you sure, gj? I thought they were trying to relieve Garfield next year.
-gj is correct. See the last sentence of the second paragraph of the original post for this thread.
P.S. They are recommending a second version of H-version 2 which reduces enrollment even lower (than 1600) in Roosevelt in 2019.
-gj
Some thoughts on the ThoughExchange(TM) survey.
First of all, I have yet to find a family of a 5th grader in an HCC program who received the link to the ThoughtExchange(TM) site that the district said would be sent. Maybe some did? Everyone I've talked to received the original email from Wyeth Jesse on 9/22 announcing that the links would be sent and the follow up email on 9/29 from communityengagement@seattleschools.org saying we should have received an email with a link. But no email with the link.
Second of all, the ThoughtExchange site decided that some comments were deemed offensive or insulting and it would not share them. For example, a comment that was critical of the district. For days the site said it would not share these censored thoughts. Then with just 24 hours left to the end of the survey, suddenly those thoughts were no longer offensive or insulting and COULD be shared after all. But mostly won't get read or reviewed by any other ThoughtExchangers(TM) because our time to exchange thoughts is about over so those previously censored thoughts probably won't get reviewed by enough people to make the cut. Pretty sneaky way to demote some answers.
At our school, the Thoughts that have received the most stars are basically just the ones that were entered into the system the earliest and thus had time to be read and starred by more people. Apparently about 5 or 6 people have to rank an answer before it gets posted.
So, since the thoughts that were entered earliest get the most stars, it would make a big difference in the results if you emailed certain schools earlier than others. Or families within certain programs within certain schools earlier or later. Or if you never emailed some families at all.
Oh and you are being tracked on your responses and your staring activity as well as what school - child and you! Big release of my info. I was told it was going to be private but that is different from using it to exclude me from future surveys.
theyown us
Have you seen this summary in the Friday superintendent memo to the board? As we all know they did not reach advanced learning families effectively...many to most did not get a survey. See below.... no visits planned to HCC sites either! Community engagement? Of everyone but advanced learning families?
"One area of engagement is feedback on potential changes to Advanced Learning services – what families want, what implications we need to consider and what questions they may have The Communications and Engagement team, together with the Student Supports team, October 6, 2017 Friday Memo, Page 2 of 673
Superintendent Larry Nyland
October 6 2017 launched a two way community engagement project using the newly implemented tool, ThoughtExchange. 2000 people have engaged in this online conversation. We are seeing good response rates from high school and middle school families – fewer responses from 5thgrade families. Home language meetings (Chinese) are scheduled for next week as well as a meeting with Garfield families. Vietnamese and Somali family meetings at the following week. Feedback from stakeholders will inform possible changes to the 2018-19 Student Assignment Plan (SAP) and in advance of finalizing high school boundaries in January
Perhaps they need feedback on their mode of getting feedback.
It may just an exercise to let the folks they're having meetings with vent off steam. That said if anyone attends one of the meetings, I'd be curious to hear what it was like, what was discussed.
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