Monday, October 23, 2017

More Assignment Plan / High School Pathways Updates

First this document was put out by the district:

http://www.seattleschools.org/cms/One.aspx?portalId=627&pageId=28460293


"One area of this work under review is how we serve our high school advanced learners. Given the opening of Lincoln High School in 2019, development of new boundaries, and the upward trend in the number of students who are eligible for Advanced Learning services, we have been seeking input on how to improve access to high school Advanced Learning programs and courses across the district.

Additionally, as part of this review we have been examining the projected Highly Capable (HC) enrollment at Garfield High School. Currently, HC seats at Garfield are reserved for any student who has participated in the Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) in eighth grade. Within a few years, the majority of Garfield’s student body will be students who have participated in the HCC program, limiting neighborhood student enrollment and access. Garfield will struggle to meet HC capacity needs while also maintaining strong neighborhood student enrollment."

Current Draft Plan:
http://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/Enrollment%20Planning/Student%20Assignment%20Plan/SAP%20revisions%202018-19/STUDENT_ASSIGNMENT_TRANSITION_PLAN_2018-19_OperationsTrackedChanges_ada.pdf


The main new piece here is a stronger guarantee of grandfathering for current Garfield students.

Still extremely problematic:

  • There is no plan for how to serve students at their reference schools. There really isn't any budget to compensate for low numbers of kids who need  particular classes. Deferring the planning process such as it is will not lead to good outcomes.  

  • The outreach process is literally occurring after the votes about the decision have happened. 



76 comments:

Anonymous said...

They have taken the Transition plan for 2017, not the SAP, and marked it up for 2018-19 ONLY as the SAP. What about the original SAP? What about 2019 and beyond? What about a transition plan for when boundaries change? Wasn't pathway info in the original SAP? What's the actual plan? You can't tell from this document.

Anonymous said...

Another general comment - the plan references Ingraham IBX as if it exists as the primary pathway for HC students at IHS, but isn't IHS all but squashing it? Isn't this year's cohort the last, and aren't they moving toward no IBX option?

Anonymous said...

Ingraham, at the IB parents meeting, said that IBX is still an option but not one that the school feels may be appropriate for most HCC kids. My sense is they feel that kids benefit more (developmentally) if they wait a year and pursue the IB diploma their Junior/Senior years. I found this a realistic and rational statement about the program, and a sign that they still support IB strongly.

Anonymous said...

Besides IBX, what is the point for HC students to attend Ingraham? Do they have a cohort or more offerings of advanced classes?

Eckstein HC

NESeattleMom said...

From what I understand, IB and IBX have been the same program from the beginning. Didn't IHS mix the IBX classes with older students in IB, and also have the same material?

Anonymous said...

IB and IBX are exactly the same in terms of the 2 year IB program, IBX students just start a year earlier and classes are a mix of sophomores, juniors, and seniors (no students can take IB classes before junior year unless they are on the IBX pathway). Without a cohort of students following the IBX pathway, however, the small number of HC students that follow the accelerated IB pathway will be left with few advanced options for senior year. There won't be enough students to justify some of the courses that were offered when a majority of HC students were on the IBX pathway. Even if they offer a single section of some of the more advanced classes, students are more likely to have scheduling conflicts that prevent them from taking the classes they need.

IBX was created as a capacity management tool. It never seemed fully supported by the district and without some official word about how students will be assigned and served in future years, I'm not sure how families are to decide if it's a good fit.

Anonymous said...

Unless something has changed, IBX is simply the IB diploma program during Sophomore and Junior year, while the "regular" IB diploma program takes place during Junior/Senior year.

Anonymous said...

Ingraham had presented last year at the info session, an IB HCC cohort option, where kids take accelerated math/science (aligns on their pathway) 9th and 10th and honors classes.
I am wondering how many HCC kids opted for regular IB this year. Anyone happen to know?

They explained the rationale (senior year issues, maturity etc.) for promoting IB and an honors pathway over IBX.

I did not see an IBX pathway listed on the current website so wondering if it will be presented as an option at this year's info session (incoming 2018 freshman class).
-changes

Anonymous said...

"Besides IBX, what is the point for HC students to attend Ingraham? Do they have a cohort or more offerings of advanced classes?"
Eckstein HC- They offer an honors course pathway for 9th and 10th, as well as accelerated math and science courses. So coming in as a group/cohort, theoretically would be a large group of same age peers in the math and science classes.

At a different high school, HCC kids are not cohorted. There are less of them then at Ingraham or Garfield. They would be with older kids.
-changes

Anonymous said...

Guy Thomas, IB coordinator at Inghraham, said that for this school year, about one third of the cohort opted to begin IB in 10th grade (IBX) and two thirds opted to wait until 11th grade.

FHS85

Tiebreaker Confusion said...

On the page marked page 12 of the file (page 14 of the PDF), there are HCC tiebreakers. I don't understand these.

For elementary, it says 1. Sibling, 2. Lottery. But this is talking about which HCC elementary school you're assigned to and Cascadia and Decatur are assigned geographically. There is no tiebreaking. There is no lottery. If you qualify, you are supposed to be guaranteed a seat. But having a sibling that qualifies does nothing for you, because each child that goes there has to qualify. Furthermore, there is no lottery. I know families who were in the Decatur zone who applied during open enrollment to attend Cascadia and they were placed on a wait list (even though there was space) and then never admitted. It was done cleanly down geographic lines with no sibling or lottery tiebreaker. So, what are they talking about? Does this apply to Fairmount Park and/or Thurgood Marshall? Because it doesn't seem to have any relationship to what's going on in the north 1/2 of the city.

For middle school, it says the HCC tiebreakers are 1. Sibling, 2. Feeder School, and 3. Lottery. Does this mean HCC students have a choice of where they go to middle school? How can it have anything to do with a sibling? Unless the sibling is also HCC and also going to middle school? Are Eckstein area HCC middle schoolers allowed to choose to attend Hamilton or JAMS or Eagle Staff? Like if they have a sibling who goes there? Does the sibling have to be in the HCC program? And does the feeder school tiebreaker mean that an HCC middle schooler from the Olympic Hills zone would get a seat at JAMS over an HCC middle schooler from the View Ridge zone because Olympic Hills is a feeder school for JAMS but View Ridge isn't? That doesn't apply to HCC, does it? Because HCC students from View Ridge *do* feed into JAMS for middle school. Right? And what lottery? Is there choice for HCC middle school?

And for high schools. Do these tie breakers apply only to HCC programs (which are only Garfield and Ingraham, right?)? Or all high schools? If my child has a sibling in HCC at Ingraham, this tiebreaker makes my child more likely to get into Ingraham, but does it work if the sibling is in the gen ed program at Ingraham? If I have one gen ed high schooler and one HCC high schooler and live in the Hale zone, can I choose Roosevelt during open enrollment and then get a lottery tiebreaker to get into Roosevelt? Or Lincoln? These tiebreakers don't tell you what tie they break.

Anonymous said...

Years back, we marked both "sibling" and IBX on the enrollment form and our child was initially assigned to IHS Gen Ed (sibling tiebreaker) and was not allowed to sign up for freshman HC/honors classes. Enrollment assigned based on sibling priority to the school, even though requested enrollment was for IBX, and the default placement should have been our neighborhood school, not IHS Gen Ed.

Tiebreaker Confusion said...

Yeah, the tiebreakers seem out of date. And they say they apply to HCC, but do they? They're so far off base from what actually happens that I don't understand why they've been included in this format.

Anonymous said...

At the Eckstein meeting tonight, staff was saying north end HC students are increasingly choosing their neighborhood high school over Garfield and Ingraham (implying that we don't need default assignment to Garfield?). A parent pointed out that they would have chosen Ingraham, but enrollment capped choice assignments and they defaulted to their neighborhood school. Another parent mentioned transportation to Garfield as being a deciding factor (bus routes have changed, making it take longer). I wanted to suggest parents might also be choosing Ballard and Roosevelt (not just any neighborhood high school), over Garfield and Ingraham, because they think Ballard and Roosevelt may be more welcoming to advanced learners than Garfield (or Hale, that was another conversation), and they still have enough of a cohort to have AP options, as the top priority is getting academic needs met, yes?

Anonymous said...

Let me get this straight: a few years ago they started shenanigans like honors for all English and capping HCC enrollment at Ingraham to create a surge in HC numbers at Roosevelt and Ballard, and now they are pointing to that surge in numbers as evidence that HC pathway should be removed?

Devious

Anonymous said...

At Eckstein meeting - staff said Ingraham will replace Garfield as guaranteed North End pathway for HCC in 2019. 2018 Garfield HCC freshman will be grandfathered into Garfield. Also said not enough HCC kids to support neighborhood HCC.

observer said...

Tiebreaker Confusion, yes, the HCC tiebreakers do apply as they are listed in the Draft SAP. Your mistake is in not realizing that they will only be invoked by those HCC students who fill in the school choice form to attend a HCC school outside their own designated pathway which is based on their address. So for elementary and high school HCC students, those with a sibling at their desired non-pathway HCC school will therefore be waitlisted ahead of those without a sibling. After them, those school choice applicants without a sibling at that school (not necessarily in the HC cohort) will be waitlist ranked based on a lottery with other qualified non-pathway HCC applicants.

For middle school, there is an additional Feeder School tiebreaker between the Sibling and Lottery tiebreakers. So for example a HCC student in the Decatur/JAMS/Garfield pathway who wants to attend Hamilton will receive that tiebreaker if they attended Cascadia Elementary. And a HCC student whose address is in the Cascadia/Hamilton/Garfield pathway but who wants to attend JAMS will receive the Feeder School tiebreaker if they attended Decatur Elementary.

You add: "Furthermore, there is no lottery. I know families who were in the Decatur zone who applied during open enrollment to attend Cascadia and they were placed on a wait list (even though there was space) and then never admitted. It was done cleanly down geographic lines with no sibling or lottery tiebreaker." Your information is not correct. In one grade, for example, the waitlist did move at least three places so there are indeed kids in the Decatur zone who were admitted to Cascadia Elementary this year.

Hope this helps.

Anonymous said...

But wait, IHS has been pushing for an end to the IBX pathway and it's IB or nothing. If Ingraham is the only guaranteed pathway for north end students, will they add AP options? Or end IB? Also, there is no sugar coating it - science at IHS needs improvement. Students are forced to self teach way too much.

Anonymous said...

So If Ingraham is to become the north end HCC pathway in 2019, I am wondering if they will lift the HCC cap on Ingraham in 2018 anticipation of change? Otherwise kids will have to change schools. What happens if your HCC kid is out of area and does not get into Ingraham for 2018 and thus goes to neighborhood school. Can you reapply for 10th grade and then get a guaranteed assignment? It would be so much easier if they just add portables for a year. Can we advocate for this in the north end?
-sigh

Anonymous said...

I think adding AP options at Ingraham might start to get messy? Are there schools that offer a full selection of both successfully? I am not aware. Why wouldn't they just add AP sections to a school or two with a strong selection already such as Ballard/Roosevelt and let north end HCC kids choose between either of those (depending upon NW/NE/magnolia/QA etc) and Ingraham IB?

Anonymous said...

Lincoln and Hale HC students given the choice of Ballard, Roosevelt and Ingraham? Why does that seem highly unlikely? How would they populate Lincoln? Look at the heat maps for HCC eligible. The "choice" already exists for all students, but the space (and staffing) does not.

Yes, adding AP options to IHS would get messy and possibly compromise IB, but limiting HC options to an IB school also seems problematic, especially given their move to eliminate the IBX pathway. IHS students would like a non-IB option as well. Students currently opt into Ballard and Hale from IHS. In 2016-17, Ballard and Hale each received about 50 IHS students. IHS enrollment is only 70% attendance area students, compared to 94% at Roosevelt, 96% at Ballard, and 83% at Hale. Who knows what the Running Start numbers look like.

Anonymous said...

Sigh, Ashley Davies told me last night that there is room for one portable at Ingraham and they haven't ruled it out for next year because it will take pressure off of severely over-enrolled Garfield. Your argument that it also reduces disruption in 2019 is solid and you should write the board. The more people who ask about it the more likely they'll seriously consider it.

Anonymous said...

Are there currently any portables at all at Ingraham? I wonder why there is room for only one portable.
-sigh

Anonymous said...

The runaway problem here is that schools are only offering advanced classes rather than comprehensive gifted services. Every student identified for HCC is entitled to gifted services at whatever public school that they attend. When schools only provide AP or IB classes then those are the services and as such must be guaranteed to students identified with those needs. These are interventions that strike at the heart of equity in a school.

As to adding AP classes with an IB school I think they are complimentary rather than in conflict. Add depth of content to breadth of questioning and you have a formidable educational experience. There is too much worrying about branding but also I would say that most staff in high schools have had minimal to no actual training or expertise in giftedness and as such have rejected gifted learners or complained about maturity when it is really a fundamental lack of understanding on the part of the teacher.

Mr. Theo Moriarty

Anonymous said...

Ingraham had portables added this school year, and they are limited this year and next due to construction. My guess is they need space for construction staging and trailers.

Anonymous said...

Folks-- To those critiquing the idea of Ingraham HCC as a north end end option, any viable suggestions? To me (despite science issues) it seems the most viable to be able to predict enough students taking same classes, as well as a stable college prep curriculum.

Seems like Lincoln is off the table as they are stating there would be no room.

So that leaves Ballard & Roosevelt who currently offer AP, but not enough sections. However, they also need enough kids to fill Lincoln.

The planning for a pathway needs to be intentional with a projected cohort. This is why Garfield worked well historically for the past 30 years for scheduling until it became over capacity.

Anonymous said...

I asked Wyeth Jesse if there is truth to the rumors that they are eliminating the IBX pathway. He confirmed what Martin Floe and Guy Thomas have been saying for a couple of years now: HC access to Ingraham isn't going away, and the school encourages families to consider carefully about whether their student will be ready to begin the IB diploma Sophomore year. The curriculum of IB & IBX is the same, and both are rigorous and challenging for HC students. Not all are ready to start it in 10th grade. "IBX pathway" is often conflated with HC access, but neither is going away.

Anonymous said...

@Mr Theo Moriarty-- Thank you for your advocacy and understanding of the issues in this district. It is apparent you have an understanding and background in the area. My brother was a gifted student in another state. He faced severe challenges until he was identified, but not until 5th grade. Initially he was put in a self contained special ed classroom for emotionally challenged kids. The gifted services received (still under special ed) were very different than what SPS provides and he also had an IEP.
-another state

Anonymous said...

The runaway problem here is that schools are only offering advanced classes rather than comprehensive gifted services.

This has been an issue for years. With the current leadership, is there any hope for improvement?

Anonymous said...

If what was said at last night's meeting is the recommendation that Advanced Learning will make concerning HCC high school pathways, I for one am thankful that the district actually listened to feedback from their surveys. By maintaining Garfield as the south HCC pathway and making Ingraham the north HCC pathway, we can focus on ensuring adequate curricular options at these schools and finally offer guaranteed options for HC students not enrolled in the cohort in middle school.

Re: AP and IB both at Ingraham, Ingraham already has several AP math classes (Statistics, Comp Sci, Calculus AB, and BC). Interlake HS in Bellevue, the model on which IBX was first based, has taught AP and IB alongside each other for years so this is nothing new. In fact, AP World History is used to prepare students for IB history classes there which are taught alongside AP classes.

Sigh is completely right, we should be advocating for the pathway change to begin next year for new 9th graders because then we can avoid the same problem as this year, with 40+ HCC students assigned to Garfield and other schools who wanted to go to Ingraham but were not moved off the waitlist.

Maple Leaf Family

Anonymous said...

Thanks@12:51PM However, there is a big issue if they continue to cap the HCC students as they have been doing again for next year. Those north end students will (likely) attend neighborhood schools and would have to re-apply in 10th if they want to attend the north end Ingraham pathway. So they would be effectively keeping alot of kids out of the north end pathway next year.

If they are serious about relieving Garfield, and want to minimize students moving, perhaps they can utilize space somewhere else as an Ingraham annex?? Sounds like portables are limited on the site next year due to construction. Any school property with space nearby?
-sigh

Anonymous said...

Seems like Lincoln is off the table as they are stating there would be no room. There's only no room because they are designing it that way. They could just as easily draw boundaries such that it would fit.

So If Ingraham is to become the north end HCC pathway in 2019, I am wondering if they will lift the HCC cap on Ingraham in 2018 anticipation of change? To be clear, these are just rumors at this point. There is no hard evidence that they plan for Ingraham to be a north-end HCC pathway in 2019. The projected capacity in 2019 on the proposed maps does not include these HCC students who are rumored to be heading there, so at this point all written evidence suggests no pathways. That doesn't mean they aren't planning it, but it would be risky to count on it until there's a clearer plan than off-the-cuff remarks.

I think adding AP options at Ingraham might start to get messy? Are there schools that offer a full selection of both successfully? I believe Interlake offers both AP and IB classes, and they seem to do just fine. It doesn't need to be a full selection of both, but complementary (i.e., advanced offerings available every year, options if you prefer one type of science over another, etc.)There's no reason for AB and IB to conflict, and it's nice for students to have options. AP allows for potentially more cost-savings in college, too.

Anonymous said...

"IBX pathway" is often conflated with HC access, but neither is going away.

It's nice of them to say that, but the numbers presented thus far don't support it. The numbers presented in the maps clearly move all/most HC students out of Garfield, but they don't move them into Ingraham. They might have room to accommodate them all if they seriously ramp up their IB capacity (and AP offerings?) over the next year, but that's not in any of the plans presented to date. Are they perhaps thinking about it? Maybe...so they should get moving on putting together a plan for community engagement and board review. (These community meetings on SAP and HS boundaries might have been a good time and venue for that, no?) The current maps might be consistent with a small--similar to now--pathway at Ingraham, but clearly that won't be sufficient. We can't just offer a pathway to the small proportion that wins a lottery.

Anonymous said...

I am wondering if AP would "possibly compromise IB" at Ingraham as one poster mentioned.

"I believe Interlake offers both AP and IB classes, and they seem to do just fine."

Are Interlake and Ingraham similar in demographics? Or does Interlake have a larger majority of HC students? It seems like there would need to be some intentional cohort and other planning. Especially with Roosevelt and Ballard (& Lincoln?) in the mix. In addition, there are kids at Ingraham who want general ed classes.

-G

Anonymous said...

Pretty sure Interlake teaches to satisfy both IB and AP requirements - in one class. A physics class or LA class may prepare them for both the IB and AP exams. It's kind of AL on steroids. Having both IB and AP options for essentially the same course seems like a scheduling and staffing nightmare - just don't see SPS being able to pull that off. They have backed off IBX, so it seems unlikely they would now ramp up expectations in classes as Interlake does.

Anonymous said...

@ G, adding more AP classes and IB seats to accommodate an influx of HC students doesn't have to impact the availability of GE classes. They offer GE classes now and would continue to do so. They might even be able to offer a wider range of GE electives with a larger student population.

The only way I can think of that AP would compromise IB would be if students decided they preferred AP and IB enrollment declined. That is probably unlikely since many people seem to like IB, but if it did happen that students didn't want it, then it would make sense for it to go, right?

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 1:19 "It's nice of them to say that, but the numbers presented thus far don't support it. The numbers presented in the maps clearly move all/most HC students out of Garfield, but they don't move them into Ingraham."

My sense is that SPS is a really large bureaucracy with pressure to an extent to be transparent to the public. So we get some info and people panic prior to decisions being finalized.

So we see different stakeholders hashing out and weighing in on ideas and different decisions with different lenses based upon their role within the organization. Maybe the board weighed in or their attorney?

Or maybe community feedback illuminated SPS would be liable for a lawsuit for not providing adequate access to services for HCC kids? Who knows.

They may have gotten feedback prior to last night and are trying to change direction etc.

I have seen boards axe ideas presented before in government...different context but it happens.

Anonymous said...

With the "missing" 500 seats at Ingraham in the boundary scenarios, all of north end high school HCC could fit at Ingraham under any scenario. It's 2018 that's the problematic year.

Anon at 1:25 is correct, Interlake has AP and IB in a single classroom. As far as Interlake vs. Ingraham demographics (from 2016-17):

Total Enrollment (1,587 vs. 1,305)

African American: 4% vs. 10%
Asian: 34% vs. 12%
Hispanic: 16% vs. 13%
Multi-Ethnic: 9% vs. 8%
White: 37% vs. 55%

Students receiving ELL services: 8% vs. 7%
Students who qualify for Free/Reduced Lunch: 27% vs 30%

In May 2016, 76 Gifted Students and 44 traditional students finished IB at Interlake. That seems roughly similar to Ingraham numbers?

Maple Leaf Family

Anonymous said...

You don't need AP and IB options for the same class, but they can be complementary (e.g., AP Chem to go along with IB Biology; AP Human Geography and/or AP World History prior to IB History).

Having both also allows students to really mix it up if they aren't going for an IB diploma, such as taking a 1-year IB science class and then an AP class in a different field. They get exposure to both the AP and IB approaches, and can show colleges they can handle both.

Anonymous said...

Yes, there is theoretically room for Ingraham to become an HCC pathway, although it's easier under some of the proposed boundaries scenarios than other--that's why they need to proactively consider it, with data, as opposed to just assuming it will work when the time comes. The other issue is that projections for all the other north end high schools seem to be based on the assumption that the HC students will all remain in their neighborhood, so they will need to consider how out-migration to this hypothetical IHS HCC pathway would affect neighborhood school projections, since HC students aren't evenly distributed. Proposed boundaries might need some adjustment given the uneven distribution of HC students.

Anonymous said...

With IB, students are restricted from taking IB courses until they start the diploma, unlike AP courses which can be taken as early as 9th grade (AP Calc and possibly AP Computer Science). At IHS, some of the IB classes are taught at a level to get kids to just pass the IB exam, but not necessarily pass with the highest scores. Classes seem to be shifting toward accessibility rather than more rigor and the more they teach classes to serve HC students, the less accessible they become to non-HC students. AP and IB options could be complementary if selectively offered as anon@1:44 suggests, but Ingraham as a north end pathway seems strangely in conflict with the direction they are moving with course offerings (really varies by class to class).

Anonymous said...

"It's nice of them to say that, but the numbers presented thus far don't support it. The numbers presented in the maps clearly move all/most HC students out of Garfield, but they don't move them into Ingraham."

First, the numbers don't move anyone anywhere. The numbers are counts of students where they live.
Second, I trust Martin Floe, Guy Thomas and the Ingraham families I've spoken to who say there is real, school-wide support for both IB and IBX, that both IB & IBX are the same curriculum, that both options are very rigorous, and that HC students continue to enroll in one or the other by choice, not by mandate.
Third, the IB program needs to draw from a pool beyond Ingraham's boundaries in order to have enough participants. HCC is a logical pool.

Based on all of that, I think we can safely put to rest the "IBX is going away" rumor. The fact that Wyeth Jesse also says these things makes it even more likely it will be available in 2019.

Benjamin Leis said...

Reminder please at least use handles/aliases so conversations are not confusing.

Things seem to be in flux, I'm waiting for more news from the operations meeting tomorrow to get a clearer picture of where we are.

NESeattleMom said...

I agree, Benjamin Leis, it is disconcerting to read various comments with just Anonymous for the author.

Anonymous said...

disconcerting?

Anonymous said...

Anon at 2:11, what do you mean the numbers are just counts of where students live? They are also projections of capacity by school, which means that where a student is counted is important. And since they are claiming these projections do the best job of right-sizing schools, clearly they are thinking of these projections as an indication of the number of students who will be there.

As to my comment re: the IB/IBX pathway, I also trust that Martin Floe and Guy Thomas are supportive, and I meant nothing negative toward them. My comment was re: the pathway itself--that while there's this idea out there that IHS will become the new north-end HCC pathway, the projections on the boundary maps don't support that. They live some wiggle room (by not including the expanded capacity) so that we can imagine or assume that such a pathway will happen, but they are not clearly and transparently planning for it--b/c the projections for Ingraham would need to be much higher if they were. The current IB/IBX program may not be going away, but will it be expanded to accommodate several hundred additional students? That is a lot less clear. And just because someone downtown says it, that doesn't make it believable. If it's true, put it in writing. Spell out where those kids will be. Show them in the projections for 2019. Doing so would also help in determining the best approach for 2018, which might be to start ramping up IHS a year earlier.

DisAPP

Anonymous said...

DisAPP- It seems that several people (Wyeth Jesse etc) are saying the same thing and Martin Floe has been saying for several years the Ingraham pathway will remain. My guess is that enrollment planning had a different lens than other depts and there is comflict. Or there is info people from the outside cannot determine. They may have recently changed direction as well internally. Do any of the top 3 maps leave space for Ingraham?
- G

Anonymous said...

@DisAPP, none of the numbers on these maps are projections.

"Capacity" isn't an enrollment projection. It's the number of students that can physically fit in a building. The numbers in the columns titled "Attendance Area Right Size Capacity" are the same as these building capacity numbers from 2015-16:
http://sps.ss8.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/Capital%20Projects%20and%20Planning/Capacity/2015-16SchoolCapacity.pdf

The numbers in the columns titled "2016 9-12th Grade SPS Residents" are counts of students who live within the proposed attendance boundary. They may or may not end up enrolling at the neighborhood school. This becomes clear if you look at the numbers for Franklin, where so many neighborhood residents end up leaving the neighborhood to go to Cleveland.

You're right that where a student is counted matters, so that SPS can avoid a scenario where building capacity is grossly out of sync with its potential neighborhood students (like Ballard is today). But at the same time, if large amounts of students leave to go to a different school, that is also a problem. So SPS will likely try to get school enrollment close to those numbers, and I agree, transparency is needed.

good fit

observer said...

Most of the preceding discussion in this thread is based on a misapprehension, sorry did not have a chance to post earlier. I also attended Eckstein open house meeting and must respectfully disagree with Anonymous at 9.40 pm. In my hearing, staff did NOT say that "Ingraham would replace Garfield as guaranteed North End pathway for HCC" when Lincoln High School reopens in 2019-20.

Instead what I heard Wyeth Jesse say was that after listening to parents at these meetings and after fully collating their recent survey responses, staff will make their HCC pathways proposal for 2019-20 in a few weeks, before the School Board votes on new SAP maps. I do agree with Anonymous 9.40 pm that Wyeth said that this forthcoming staff proposal will not continue Garfield as the HCC pathway for North End students. (He clearly promised that Current Garfield HCC students including 2018 freshmen will be grandfathered at Garfield for all four years, but they would be the last such class.)

But unlike Anonymous 9.40 pm, I heard Wyeth say that after processing our parent input the staff proposal for North End HCC students will be to create MORE than one new HCC high school pathway. On the other hand, Wyeth repeatedly said the staff proposal will NOT be to assign every HCC students to their neighborhood school, in other words not all high schools will become HCC pathways. North of the ship canal, if Lincoln and Nathan Hale, for example, are not proposed as high school HCC pathways, this would suggest that Roosevelt and Ballard would join Ingraham as likely HCC pathway contenders.

Also, while indicating that there will be more than one north end HCC high school pathway, Wyeth did NOT say that Ingraham will become a HCC pathway (the Ingraham IB/IBX option for HCC students does not currently make Ingraham an alternative HCC pathway to Garfield). He spoke emphatically about the need for HCC to offer both AP and IB opportunities, and Ingraham already does offer HCC IB opportunites to which the staff are committed. So while the staff might recommend Ingraham as a HCC high school pathway, it also may not be proposed as another pathway. For example, Roosevelt and Ballard might be proposed as new HCC pathways together with Ingraham, or even instead of Ingraham.

Curiously, Wyeth did not indicate that the new north end HCC pathways would be simple geosplits. He used the word "choice" a few times and said that HCC students would not be forced to go to just one HCC pathway school but could rather choose among them. While this sounds appealing, I wonder how the district could guarantee seats in schools for HCC kids and not make it a random lottery for some schools. You might ask him to answer that question.

Wyeth Jesse also said that staff are aware of the need for HCC classroom rigor, for choices for AP and honors including multiple sections, for IB students, for the need to establish certain shared core offerings in all HCC pathway high schools with room for variation between schools beyond that. I was impressed by his enthusiasm, knowledge and eagerness to listen to parent concerns.

Wyeth Jesse surprised me by saying that the recommended H2 map boundaries did not constrain the forthcoming recommendation by his staff on the redrawing of HCC pathways. The open house event was organized like a school science fair with various SPS staff members manning different tables with posters and comment boxes. I asked Ashley Davies of Enrollment Planning the same boundary maps question and she agreed, saying that the proposed map will be revised several times before final Board approval and these revisions will include the forthcoming proposed HCC pathways.

Anonymous said...

@observer--Thanks for the damage control. Sounds like you're ready to run WJ's campaign for Superintendent.

Too many versions. If what YOU say is true, I vote Roosevelt, Ingraham, with one being more math/science/engineering focused and the other being IB/writing/ELA/gov/history/social sciences focused.

Confusion Abound

Anonymous said...

@ good fit, but if they are using those numbers to "right size" the schools--meaning how well the "Attendance Area Right Size Capacity" and the "2016 9-12th Grade SPS Residents" match--they are effectively using the latter as projections.

DisAPP

Anonymous said...

DisAPP that's not what they mean by "right size." That's a term they use when talking about the physical capacity of a building. They define it this way: "For the purpose of developing attendance boundaries that are appropriate in the long term, capacities that are right sized provide a dedicated teaching space for each PCP teacher. They also provide a dedicated computer lab at each school and remove current portables about 15% of the total classroom count."
source:
https://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/Capital%20Projects%20and%20Planning/facilities_master_plan/01_VOLUME_I_REPORT_V5.pdf

It would be more clear if they called the column on the left "physical building capacity" and called the column on the right "number of SPS students that lived within the proposed boundary last year." In typical SPS fashion they are purposefully NOT projecting with these maps, simply giving us a bunch of data and leaving it to us to draw our own conclusions. I'd really love to see these maps redone with projected 2019 resident counts.

good fit

Anonymous said...

@good fit, but when they say that a particular boundary option is recommended because it right-sizes schools, they are talking about students, not physical space. Under the "advantages" of their preferred option (Hv2) they list "Helps to right size the high schools, and creates a boundary for Lincoln that right sizes the school given it has a capacity of 1,600 seats." The maps clearly don't right-size physical space; they are referring to student populations.

DisAPP

Anonymous said...

I'm the parent of an HCC seventh grader at WMS. We live in Southeast - Yes, some south end HCC parents read this blog! (We're here! We're here!)

I have waded through many comments here about Ingraham and the fate of North end HCC HS pathways. I don't see anything about South end pathways. This is important to me, because I have real doubts that my student would be well served at our reference school, if the plan is to end HS pathways altogether. I have written to Betty Patu about it - no acknowledgement or response.

Could someone who was at the meeting please share any information provided that would suggest what the district has planned for South end - particularly Southeast - HCC HS pathways for 2019 forward?

Ruthie

observer said...

Ruthie,

as one who attended the Eckstein open house meeting, let me emphasize what I reported above in my October 24 post at 6.42 pm, specifically there is NO staff "plan to end HS pathways altogether" making all HCC students be served at their reference school. Instead, the plan is to add more HCC high school pathways, rather than just the one that exists -- Garfield (the Ingraham IB/IBX option does not currently make it a HCC pathway school). But adding more HCC high school pathways will NOT mean that every Seattle high school becomes a HCC pathway -- staff explained that there needs to be enough students at a school to ensure AP or honors or IB rigor, choice of subjects with multiple sections, etc.

Because the meeting was at Eckstein, most questions were about high school HCC plans north of the Ship Canal after Lincoln reopens in 2019 and Garfield will no longer receive north end HCC students.

Looking at the maps for the South end high schools, if they add a new HCC high school pathway this might suggest that West Seattle High School will be considered. Another possibility might be Rainier Beach but it already has IB and could receive option HCC students in that program like Ingraham without becoming a new pathway. Maybe less likely are Chief Sealth and Franklin because Garfield already has its HCC pathway. Because they are option high schools, the Center School (too small?) and Cleveland STEM might not be named as HCC pathways, but who knows?

You should go and ask yourself at the West Seattle High School open house on November 8 and the Cleveland High School open house on November 9. The staff insist that they are still formulating their proposal and still processing parental feedback, so your views and comments might still make a difference.

Anonymous said...

Observer - Thanks for this clarification. I already have the West Seattle High School open house on my calendar and plan to attend. I'll try to post here if there is relevant discussion.

Ruthie

Anonymous said...

@"confusion abound Too many versions. If what YOU say is true, I vote Roosevelt, Ingraham, with one being more math/science/engineering focused and the other being IB/writing/ELA/gov/history/social sciences focused."

Or I vote could be Ballard and Ingraham. Ballard offers actual honors classes, as opposed to regular classes with optional honors credit like Roosevelt. I believe Ballard also offers a science AP class or two that Roosevelt does not. Also Ballard's robotics club is really strong, they won the World Championship. They have the Bio Tech academy so have strong math & science. They have just as many, if not even more, HC pathway kids in Ballard, Magnolia, QA as does NE. It would be easier for the Magnolia/QA HCC kids to get to Ballard.
-TR
-

Anonymous said...

"staff explained that there needs to be enough students at a school to ensure AP or honors or IB rigor, choice of subjects with multiple sections, etc."

Yes and what I have been writing to them, since I heard of the former neighborhood school plan. Advanced learning staff also must have communicated this internally, as I know they have also stated this fact. For people who understand scheduling of courses and budget etc, you need a ratio of kids to a certain numbers of multiple sections of kids needing same classes for ease of scheduling. It's a delicate balance of enrollment as well and one that can be tricky. So glad they got this message.
-Whew

Anonymous said...

First of all - Thanks to ALL for sharing this information as it is IMPOSSIBLE to get this detail from SPS! Now we need some advice :)

If I'm reading all these tea leaves correctly...my 8th grade JAMS HCC student will have a guaranteed pathway to Garfield for 9th grade, then will have an option 10th grade year to stay at Garfield or move to a North End HCC school (Roosevelt or Ingraham)?

If this is true, should we just try to get him into Roosevelt his 9th grade year so he won't have to switch schools? Would we have any chance of getting him into the over-crowded Roosevelt? Would we be giving up his HCC status if we opted him into Roosevelt for 9th grade?

Pumpkinbread

Benjamin Leis said...

@pumpkinbread This is going to be a deeply unsatisfying answer but I think even by open enrollment this year the situation is likely to have shifted yet again.

Anonymous said...

@Pumpkinbread,

According to the district letter posted on Garfield's website, there's a good chance your student would be able to stay at GHS. (It says this: Q: Will there be a grandfathering of students identified as Highly Capable currently attending Garfield? A: If changes are made, we will recommend to the Board that all HC students attending Garfield during the 2018-19 school year be grandfathered.) These are just recommendations--or more accurately, possible future recommendations--but that appears to be the current thinking. The thinking could change, or the board could have other thoughts, but there you have it.

Some Roosevelt students will likely be geo=split to different high schools in 2019, so depending where you live your student could be relocated. Under the recommended option (H v.2), Roosevelt students will be shifted to Lincoln, Hale, Ballard, and Ingraham.

Once identified as HC you don't lose that designation, but I believe that you would give up the pathway guarantee if you opted for RHS first. There should be a little more flexibility in the north end high schools in 2019 in the event that you wanted to try for a spot at a new HCC pathway site (if created), so your odds might be ok, but then again they seem to be supporting policies that limit choice, and they aren't great at moving waitlists...

If I were you and your primary concern was stability and you were fine with Garfield, I'd probably choose that--based on currently available info. But things are likely to shift by this spring when you need to make a decision.

Roller Coaster

Anonymous said...

If that current statement holds I think your student could stay at Garfield, but I would be awfully reluctant to trust that that statement will hold, either through open enrollment this year or even if so through the geosplits next year. For entering 9th graders it is probably worth exploring your neighborhood school (and keeping track of boundary changes). The way the staff is editing the SAP I would definitely not count on flexibility even once Lincoln opens.

NJP

Anonymous said...

Is it only me, or does Garfield seem like an iffy choice if stability is the concern? If the cohort pathway at Garfield ends and enrollment numbers go down, won't they have the same issues as any other school in terms of limited course options? All schools impacted by boundary changes will have to make some hard decisions: if enrollment numbers go down, staff reductions follow. As Benjamin suggested, it's too early to make plans. There's simply too much up in the air. And you are likely to get differing opinions on the best option. Also, the way the revised language is written, returning to your neighborhood school is no longer guaranteed for those with choice assignments (will Garfield change to a "choice" assignment, as opposed to a default assignment?), but is on a staffing/space available basis which is not clearly defined.

sky dive

Anonymous said...

"Once identified as HC you don't lose that designation, but I believe that you would give up the pathway guarantee if you opted for RHS first."

What? Can someone please help clarify. We are definitely Ballard as far as neighborhood school in all 3 maps, very close to BHS. We want to try for Ingraham IBX option for our current 8th grader for next year, but there is possibility (as Ingraham is capping) child would be waitlisted.

If we put Ballard as second choice instead of Garfield, child would "give up an HC pathway guarantee"? Do you mean give up Garfield or a pathway? What does that mean exactly?Would we be able to reapply in 10th to Ingraham IBX and be given same consideration?Presumably there would be room in 2019. I understand Garfield is off the table for 10th and understand that reasoning. This is all so confusing.
- NW HC parent

Anonymous said...

Right, Sky Dive--the uncertainty about returning to your neighborhood school is a concern for me as well. I have a 9th grader who chose to go to Roosevelt rather than Ingraham or Garfield. I have a 7th grader at JAMS who might be put on a waitlist for Roosevelt if they "opt out of the cohort". I use quotation marks there because IB isn't a fit for all kids, and as mentioned previously, Garfield hasn't seemed very enthusiastic about the HCC population there. We have been very lucky to have had choices, and even luckier to have great choices nearby--but virtually every year I feel like we all need a secret decoder ring to determine what the next step is and where we will be. I appreciate the insights people are providing here, so thank you.

GourdSeason

Anonymous said...

GourdSeason - side question here. Did your former HCC 9th grader at Roosevelt have to repeat the HCC classes they took in middle school?

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 1:58: They have a blocked Language Arts/Social Studies experience at RHS and my understanding is that they can take honors (or work to get honors designations) next year in those areas. He's taking Algebra II Honors and Spanish III. He opted to take Biology this year (did OK but not great at JAMS in Biology) but could have started with Chemistry, I believe. I think he'd take Pre-Calc next year then AP Calc as a junior, not sure about senior year. I was impressed with all of his teachers at Curriculum Night. That said, all kids are different--ours is very young for his grade level and has generally been the type to do enough work to get the job done so he can do something he considers fun. You might consider reaching out to the counselors at RHS with your 8th-grader's schedule to see what their thoughts on classes might be. Good luck!

GourdSeason

Anonymous said...

Thank you GourdSeason, this is helpful.

Anonymous said...

@ sky dive, it seems like the impact on GHS course availability would be gradual if the north-end HCC pathway to GHS were phased in slowly (as in, grandfathering). For that 9th grade year the numbers would still be high, and there aren't many advanced classes to take that year anyway. In 10th when they might start taking AP classes, there will still be lots other 10th, 11th and 12th grade HCC students there, so availability should be similar. By senior year, however, things might be fairly different. There would likely still be south-end HCC students of all grades, plus the lingering cohort of north-end 12th graders. That might indeed mean significantly reduced access to advanced classes--although it sounds like students have often ended up having to do Running Start to get full schedules or the right classes anyway?

Then again, it's Garfield, and if they are getting rid of most of their HCC students who knows what they'll do. Maybe they'll just decide to drop all AP classes, making everything honors for all. The stability I was referring to earlier was in response to your specific concern about not having to switch high schools. Getting an appropriate education for your kid is a completely different matter.

Roller Coaster

Anonymous said...

"returning to your neighborhood school is no longer guaranteed for those with choice assignments "

Can someone please explain this statement? If for example, we choose Ingraham IBX and do not get in, the neighborhood school is not a guarantee? Or do you mean if an out of area Ingraham IBX family (or anyone else with a choice assignment) wants to return to neighborhood school, it is not an option.
-confused

Anonymous said...

Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts on our 8th grader's potential path. If it is made clear that Roosevelt (which is close to us, although Hale is our reference) is becoming a HCC path in 2019, we need to consider trying to get him into Roosevelt in 2018. Probably a fantasy -- but then he could then be in the same school for 4 years, have a enough of a HCC cohort for those Senior year classes, and his commute would be reasonable.

Of course I believe the risk would be - we try for Roosevelt and don't get in, then be turned down by Garfield, and end up at Hale which would be a disaster. I think. I dunno. It is so darn confusing!

Pumpkinbread

Anonymous said...


bl - on a housekeeping note. allowing none signed comments seemed to up the conversation. thanks for listening to that.

;-)

NNE Mom said...

@confused,

"returning to your neighborhood school is no longer guaranteed for those with choice assignments" should mean that if you receive a choice assignment, your spot at your neighborhood school is no longer guaranteed for you.

So, if you're assigned to Olympic Hills, but you choose Hazel Wolf during open enrollment and you get in, then your spot at Olympic Hills is no longer guaranteed.

But you're right that this is not very clear what this means in an HCC high school context. If you live in the Hale zone, an HCC student would presumably currently have the pathway Cascadia -> JAMS -> Garfield. So the student is automatically assigned to Garfield for 9th grade unless some other choice is made, right? So if you choose and get into Ingraham, does that mean you've given up Hale and Garfield (which are both full)? For high schoolers, I'm not sure what this means.

The use of "neighborhood school" makes it hard for HCC families to understand what's going on. What does "neighborhood school" mean to a student on a pathway?

Anonymous said...

With the current SAP, an HCC student who chooses Ingraham over Garfield - and is assigned to Ingraham - loses their pathway to Garfield. They could still choose to return to their neighborhood school, either before May 31 (end of open enrollment, but after assignments have been made) or the following open enrollment period.

With the latest SAP proposal, students will now be blocked from their neighborhood school as well (not just HC students choosing Ingraham, but any student accepting a choice assignment). What is the intention of this change? What are they trying to prevent? And are we okay with this? It doesn't sit right with me. The existing policy acknowledges that sometimes a choice assignment is not the best academic fit - and students have the option of returning to their neighborhood school.

If families knew they would be locked into their choice assignment, when previously they had some flexibility, would parents make the same choice? Is it right to eliminate that choice without a year's notice to families? On one hand, you want a guarantee that your choice assignment remains through the highest grade at the school, but is it okay for the district to also say, "no changes?"

Anonymous said...

"With the latest SAP proposal, students will now be blocked from their neighborhood school as well (not just HC students choosing Ingraham, but any student accepting a choice assignment). What is the intention of this change? What are they trying to prevent? And are we okay with this?"

I think the board axed the new SAP proposal last night and sent it back didn't they? Someone else fill me in if this is not correct.
-rumor

Anonymous said...

Sending it back does not mean the same change won't reappear in the next plan.

sky dive