Wednesday, November 1, 2017

HCC Pathway decisions in the latest board materials

This is from a draft of the agenda and so may change but there are a couple of  decisions here that  I think are concerning :

  • Franklin as a pathway for the SE.
  • The lack of capacity impact analysis.
Note: yesterday I assumed this was also up somewhere in the Board Agenda. I have not found it there  yet so that's another reason to treat this as a draft like I originally wrote. In any case I would be surprised if this is the end state.


NE Parent said...

Can you post the link to the document and the document name?

Anonymous said...

Based on the chart you posted, it looks to me as though Lincoln HCC kids go to Garfield not the other way around.


Benjamin Leis said...

You're right in the rush I misinterpreted the chart.

NE Parent said...

I believe something along these lines of the proposal makes the most sense:

- Some Seattle High Schools would never be able to adequately serve HCC students on there own. Therefore a pathway is necessary.

- If there is a "single pathway school" for some HCC students, then there must be pathways for all HCC students.

- There are already 5 HCC middle schools.

- Therefore it makes sense to feed the 5 HCC middle schools into 5 HCC high schools.

This has always seemed like the logical solution. Yes, some people won't like it for various reasons. But I would bet some variation will eventually be approved by the board.

Anonymous said...

Ben - Where are you seeing this document? Could you please post a link? I don't see it included in the materials on the SPS website concerning the November 1 board meeting.


Anonymous said...

Sorry, but this HC plan looks horrible to me. They sure are trying to make sure that Lincoln will have nothing going it for it: no HCC, no language immersion, no sports field. If I wasn't already bumped about living in the new Lincoln boundaries with 99.9% certainty, now I am. Taking HCC/IBX away from Ingraham, in addition, does not help either.

South of Green Lake

NW Parent said...

It seems like it would make sense for the HC pathway to continue with their attendance area classmates to the high school. However, for the north side, it does the exact opposite. Based on draft attendance area, Eagle Staff would go to Ingraham, yet HC to Ballard. Jane Adams would go to Hale, but HC to Roosevelt. Ingraham is also being expanded, so sending HC here would help balance the seats, while not requiring more people that live a few blocks from Ballard to attend Ingraham.

Anonymous said...

This would be a complete "experiment". I truly worry about the splintering of these kids who will likely be put in positions of not being able to make schedules easily etc. All I can say is I predict a disaster based upon my career experience. I strongly suggest people align with the HCC Advisory board which has made the recommendation of one additional north end pathway and keeping one south pathway at Garfield. Write the board.

Anonymous said...

My initial thought is, are they trying to kill off IB? The most recent enrollment report shows 129 students attending Ingraham from Ballard, 79 from Nathan Hale, and 151 from Roosevelt. If Roosevelt and Ballard are designated HC pathways, my guess is there will be a significant shift to RHS and BHS from Ingraham. IB has never been well supported by SPS and the rigidity of the diploma program limits advancement to some extent. This change will happen right when Ingraham is adding 500 seats. At the same time, they are maintaining Garfield as a pathway for Lincoln area students, but offering next to nothing for Lincoln students not identified as HC?

My other thought is, what's going on with grandfathering? Isn't Garfield the only HC pathway school? Ingraham was an option, not a pathway, so what happens there?

Can someone please provide a link to the draft info?

Anonymous said...

"Therefore it makes sense to feed the 5 HCC middle schools into 5 HCC high schools."
No. It does not.

Anonymous said...

There are also not nearly enough students feeding into West Seattle High School. Madison as an HCC site makes no sense and this is even worse.

Anonymous said...

The enrollment data (2016-17) also shows 102 students enrolling at Garfield from Franklin, 44 from Rainier Beach, 75 from West Seattle, and 23 from Chief Sealth. Too much splintering. Where is the data to show projected cohort sizes at each newly created pathway?

Anonymous said...

I also expect Ingraham will be very upset about the loss of the HC students. Am I reading this correctly that Ingraham & Ballard HC will only have a pathway to Ballard? Also, who do they expect will fill the 500 additional seats? This plan has so many issues.

Anonymous said...

"Where is the data to show projected cohort sizes at each newly created pathway?"

Exactly, and don't forget all those HC students who are fleeing to apply to private schools this year.

Anonymous said...

This will not work for my family. Frankly, requiring a 45 minute bus ride from Wallingford to Garfield when there are not one, but TWO, HCC pathway schools that would only require a 15 minute bus ride - it asks too much. We need an option that is north of the ship canal or we will be forced to leave the District. I'll be writing the Board.

Near Woodland Park

NE Parent said...

There are two big problems with the HCC Advisory Committee's recommendation: (1) they are very late to the game; (2) they don't propose an actual school.

A single HCC North School would seem to suggest the large-scale displacement of another constituency already at the school. Even Lincoln now has a "constituency" because the boundary task force is well down its path.

Is the HCC Advisory Committee suggesting the district build yet another school? Because if not, in concrete terms what location is it proposing for the North End?

I'm not saying the splintering is great. But I'd rather five pathways than zero.

I do think the each of the five HCC middle schools should feed into a corresponding HS so there is a continuing cohort. Then the issue is not the cohort, but that the small size of the cohort is an issue for class scheduling. Perhaps there should be three HCC high schools or four, but I think it's unrealistic to think it will be only two.

Light Rail! said...

The non-high-cap high school assignment zones do not seem to take transportation friendliness into consideration, but weirdly this one does. All these pairings seem to figure in the idea that north-south transportation routes are typically easier in Seattle than east-west routes. Huh. My Hale-zone student would have an easy (light rail!) commute to Roosevelt and presumably a good chance of accessing appropriate-level coursework there.

Anonymous said...

Awesome. In West Seattle we don't get either.

NE Parent said...

Based on the HCC Middle Schools pathways, the following would seem to provide cohort continuity:

Eagle Staff + Whitman -> Ingram
Jane Addams + Eckstein -> Roosevelt
Hamilton + McClure -> Lincoln
Meany + Mercer + Washington + Alki Kurose -> Garfield
Madison + Denny -> West Seattle

Benjamin Leis said...

I've had a bit more time to digest the draft. I added the 9th grade HCC section. Note, it does have language about IBX remaining at Ingraham. This option is still space limited.

Anonymous said...

@NE Seattle: are the numbers there for West Seattle? Why send Eagle Staff/Whitman HCC to Ingraham and not Ballard? Keep Ingraham as option IB for HCC and maintain recommendation to send NW HCC to Ballard?


Anonymous said...

Looks like a great result for HCC high schoolers north of the ship canal. A poor result for south and west. I've asked before, and others have as well - where is this document? I don't see it on the Board materials on the website. I think it's fair to ask this. Please post a link, otherwise it's very difficult to take this seriously.


Anonymous said...

Staff has barfed in its own mouth.


Another NW said...

@NE Seattle - Ingraham can't be an HCC site unless they add a lot of AP classes, otherwise it's not comparable to the other sites as primarily an IB program

Anyone else concerned about the footnote for HC 8th graders in 2019-20 who are enrolled in HCC - looks like there is not option to choose your neighborhood school and be guaranteed a spot. Other positive change, now HC qualified kids can enter a pathway school even if they never enrolled.

Anonymous said...

Yes, seems odd that you'd be blocked from your neighborhood school.

NE Parent said...

Here would be a slightly updated proposal:


* Roosevelt: Most HCC students that currently live in the proposed Hale and Roosevelt attendance areas are currently assigned to JAMs for middle school. As Roosevelt has more HCC students and AP classes than Hale, Roosevelt seems like it would make sense for these students.

* Ballard: Most HCC students that currently live in the proposed Ingram and Ballard attendance areas are currently assigned to Eagle Staff for middle school. For these students, either Ballard or Ingram as the HCC HS would make sense. Perhaps because IB is at Ingram, Ballard would be the best.

* Lincoln: Most HCC students that currently live in the proposed Lincoln attendance area are currently assigned to Hamilton for middle school. For these students, Lincoln as the HCC HS would make sense. Or perhaps they could be sent to say Ballard as well if the cohort needs to be larger.


* Garfield: In the South, keeping Garfield as the HCC HS for the HCC kids assigned to Washington Middle School seems obvious.

* West Seattle: That leaves West Seattle. In West Seattle, the HCC students that live in the Madison and Denny MS Attendance Areas are assigned to Madison MS. It seems the logical choice would be to assign them to West Seattle HS, or to leave them at Garfield so there is a larger cohort.


* Cohort: One goal I would have would be to keep the Middle School HCC Cohorts together.

* Minimize Travel: Another goal would be to keep students around as much as possible where they live.

* Class Offerings: And a third would be to make sure there is enough of a cohort so that there are adequate class offerings.

Anonymous said...

What about Franklin and Rainier Beach students? They shouldn’t be kicked out of Garfield to make way for kids from Wallingford.

West Seattle students should be assigned to Washington and Garfield. There are not even two full classrooms of HCC students per grade in West Seattle.

Anonymous said...

@NE Parent-- Too much splintering creates lots of issues with course scheduling in high school. Middle school course offering are much more limited. There needs to be fewer high schools grouping students who need same classes for schedules to be made easily.

The cohort projections need to be figured out. With Ingraham IB in the mix and private schools it will also get messy.

Just looking roughly at numbers, W Seattle and other areas have fewer kids. The South end should keep Garfield as the only pathway.

A Single HC pathway would also work best in the N End definitely to mirror how Garfield has been able to offer a critical mass.

Ingraham although "optional" has been a pathway many N End kids have been choosing and many will continue to choose especially if the cap is lifted.

The district can create room as they are reworking boundaries. At least one of the maps left Ballard with considerable space. Perhaps Lincoln HC can attend Ballard. Regardless if two HC schools Roosevelt and Ballard are chosen, Lincoln HC should attend one of those (if Garfield single HC south end option) as they will need critical mass.

Anonymous said...

P.S or 1/2 of Lincoln HC (Magnolia/QA) attend Ballard and the other 1/2 Roosevelt (Wallingford) etc.

GLP said...

Hi Ben,

Can you provide more information about the source of this document? Which Board Meeting agenda are you referring to? When is this being presented? I can't find this in any of the materials online.


Anonymous said...

I can't tell if Roosevelt and Ballard are proposed because they make sense for the community or because their principals are willing to support advanced learning. If it's the latter, we need to examine the effectiveness of site-based management when working within a complex system. Decisions should be based on data and projections, not whims and opinions of individual principals like the ones in place at Hale and Lincoln. The District proposed sending all HCC high school students back to their neighborhood schools, then realized there isn't critical mass or leadership support at a few schools. They actually knew that, so why the dog and pony show? Now they have proposed a wild recommendation with Lincoln HCC students at Garfield, pushing SE and W HCC students out, and it looks like boundaries for Ballard and Roosevelt will have to come south which pushes Mapleleaf and north Greenlake into illogical school assignments. This seems like another dog and pony show to illustrate all of the bad options before actually laying down the final card: HCC at Lincoln. Why all this drama? Are they trying to make it appear they were forced into a logical decision?

Best Inshow

Anonymous said...

Lincoln as an HCC and LI pathway just seems like the most obvious solution to minimizing boundary redraws, balancing capacity, and maintaining walkability. This is so backwards...planning boundaries, then program placements, then reworking boundaries...ack...just so painful to see this play out. Busing Lincoln students to Garfield, then leaving Franklin and WS with smaller fractured cohorts? Why?

Anonymous said...

Just an fyi: there is no official "busing" in high school except for students who require it for their IEP. Generally, students are responsible for getting to school on their own. Many do take Metro buses. That would not change under any of this plan.


Anonymous said...

To get access to Operations Committee materials (Nov. 2 meeting):

(As School Board Committees are working committees, the documents presented to the Board can change up to the time of the meeting. The Board Executive Committee has approved a pilot program to post to the website committee agendas and approved minutes only. Full meeting materials for Regular Board Meetings will still be posted. If you would like access to any of the materials for this meeting, you may call 206-252-0040 or email and the Board Office staff will send committee materials to you promptly.)

Anonymous said...

" Now they have proposed a wild recommendation with Lincoln HCC students at Garfield, pushing SE and W HCC students out, " Yes this is a wild recommendation. Some Lincoln families I know have said they will apply to private schools instead. A friend in W Seattle is very upset as she feels there will not be sufficient courses at W Seattle. This is a mess. Why can't they do one pathway for South Seattle that includes W Seattle.

In the Know said...

Here is a link to the file referenced in this blog. It is on page 59 of the PDF file.

Anonymous said...

Who can we write to this afternoon if we can't attend the meeting? Who is on the operations committee?


Anonymous said...

This would seem to be the key component of the analysis (from p. 40 of the PDF at the link above):

"In addition, the HC pathway changes for 2019-20 create more opportunities for HC qualified and future qualified students to access advanced placement courses closer to home. One concern from the equity analysis is ensuring that students in Southwest and Southeast pathways have a sufficient number of advanced placement offerings and staff have professional development to ensure that they can adequately serve the HC students who will be at the school. The Advanced Learning department has over a year of planning to ensure that the proper supports are in place to make sure students’
needs are met. By providing services close to home, the district’s intent is to make sure students do not need to leave their community to receive the educational opportunities they need. This recommendation is made in direct response to the requests we heard from our ELL families."

Call me cynical, but I am *extremely suspicious* that the Advanced Learning department - which, as I recall, has little staffing for anything other than testing - will "ensure that the proper supports are in place" to equitably meet HC students' needs, at all of these high schools, beginning in 2019. I predict that the north end will be OK, south and west will suffer. But I guess if they're suffering in their own neighborhoods, and SPS can claim they paid attention to the concerns of ELL families, that looks enough like equity?


Anonymous said...

Flummoxed - The operations committee is Stephan Blanford (Chair), Scott Pinkham, and Jill Geary.


Unknown said...

This doesn't seem to address the problem of staff placing artificial capacity restraints on schools when it suits them. Also would love to see current 8th graders get the option to get assigned as HC to their future pathway school rather than Garfield.
Mom o 2

Anonymous said...

Can we imagine a day when light rail let's off across the street from Roosevelt and busses actually quickly service the Greenlake Park and Ride? At that point, I can imagine Roosevelt making sense as THE northend HCC site, with Lincoln picking up speed as a school equally strong as RHS is now, where many kids are scrambling to attend. There may need to be another HIghschool at the Northgate light rail station, perhaps a smaller 6-12 International language immersion school like the one in Kirkland, but not so selective, serving 400-600 students. This would be a benefit for the various ELL communities in the far northend. We would need staff and leadership who are actually willing to create programs where they make sense. Pipe dream?

Open Mind

Anonymous said...

Yes Mom o 2.
Can we please just send the current 8th graders to their future HCC school instead of one year at Garfield then switching?


Benjamin Leis said...

So we're all on the same page - the current draft policy specifies that the 8th graders will go to Garfield and be grandfathered there and NOT switch to the new pathways.

Anonymous said...

Are they also guaranteed a space in their neighborhood school for next year? What is the language in the latest transition plan and how does it align with the current SAP?

Anonymous said...

@ Benjamin-- Is this also the case with Ingraham IB? So current 8th grade HC cannot switch schools in 2019?I have a strong feeling this is absolutely not clear to current 8th grade families.

Instead of committing to a long commute to Garfield, many will choose the future 2019 HC pathway school if it is also their neighborhood school ex Ballard & Roosevelt. I don't know what they will do as both are too over enrolled to take them back next year.


Anonymous said...

@Ruthie-- I am not sure, it seems like they all can have issues even at Ballard & Roosevelt. Garfield has tons of sections so kids can make schedules easily and classes do not conflict. In contrast even Roosevelt and Ballard will have no where near the same number of AP sections. In addition the registrar might not schedule classes so as not to conflict.

In reality at Garfield they are really scheduling for a "program" in which classes fit together. This is easier if you have tons of students taking the very same core classes, like gen ed students etc. Even at Ballard & Roosevelt, this will not be the case. With electives thrown in the mix, it may get very tricky. Classes might conflict, kids might not be able to take certain classes etc.

Benjamin Leis said...

@worried - I'm literally just quoting the district text from the top of my post. Its not specific about whether Ingraham counts as a pathway school. That's probably something to ask about.

In general, switching schools is always possible during open enrollment subject to all the normal policy that governs it. I'd suggest parsing the full draft SAP to make sure what changes are being proposed. (Again this is all draft so there is no guarantee it will pass as currently written.) Right now you have the right to return to your neighborhood school at any time.

As to the effects of the policy if it passes, I would also not be surprised if many families chose to attend the closer school next year. Your concerns are something to bubble up to the staff/directors.

Anonymous said...

Benjamin - are you sure "grandfathered" means "can't opt for a North end HCC pathway the next year"? I took it to mean the student could stay at Garfield if they wanted.


Benjamin Leis said...


My interpretation is that under this proposal for the 8th grade cohort the pathway is Garfield/IHS and yes they are guaranteed to be able to stay at Garfield. At the same time, anyone could opt for any other school i.e. Roosevelt/Ballard in either 9th or 10th grade. In fact under the SPS system you can try to get into any school at any year regardless of location subject to the number of spaces available and rules governing process i.e. lotteries if its not your neighborhood reference school. That however, wouldn't be switching to the new pathway which only exists for the 7th grade class and up. It would count as a regular part of choice enrollment.

So for a couple of Examples:

You're an 8th grader living in the Roosevelt zone. You have a guaranteed spot at either Garfield or Roosevelt next year. You can apply for a lottery spot at IHS without losing your placement at Garfield if you don't get it and can return to Roosevelt at any year (as long as you remain within its boundaries). You will not have to switch schools if you go to Garfield. You may have to switch schools depending on the boundary issues with Lincoln if you go to Roosevelt.

You're an 8th grader living in the Nathan Hale zone. You have a guaranteed spot at either Nathan Hale or Garfield. You can apply for a lottery spot at IHS without losing your placement at Garfield if you don't get it and can return to Nathan Hale at any year. You can apply to Roosevelt in 9th grade but its subject to a lottery and I think the way the language is written you give up your guaranteed spot at Garfield in doing so. (This needs some checking) If you go to Garfield in later years you can apply to switch to Roosevelt under the lottery. Boundary issues may come into play here if you choose a neighborhood placement but its less likely.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Benjamin.
In other words, you think when my current HCC 8th grader is a 10th grader there will be no guaranteed spot at the new North End HCC school (Roosevelt)? This would seem to go against the district's plan to relieve Garfield, no?


Benjamin Leis said...

@pumpkinbread - I don't like to second guess the district's motives (a lot of the decisions don't make sense to me) but presumably if they thought after all the other changes there was still a capacity issue at Garfield that required a geosplit of the HCC cohort there they would have written the draft policy the other way around. Generally, staff does not rely much on choice to solve these type issues.

That said, to reiterate my original point I'm not convinced there has been much capacity analysis done around this plan. I'm actually much more worried about Roosevelt and Ballard under this plan than Garfield at this point. So I'm going to repeat my other advice you should bubble up your concerns through the staff and board of directors.

Anna said...

Melissa Westbrook posted the documentation for the Operations Committee meeting that happened on 11/2:

The Operation Committee's suggested Student Assignment Plan for 2018-19 is introduced on page 38. You can read the clean version (begins on page 43) or the redlined version (to see what has been changed, begins on page 63).

This new SAP proposes updated high school regional pathways for students entering 9th grade starting in 2019-20.

This will be introduced to the Board on November 15, 2017 and they plan for the Board to approve/reject/modify it Dec. 6, 2017. So, if anyone has anything to say, now is the time to write to the board.

Anonymous said...

"I'm actually much more worried about Roosevelt and Ballard under this plan than Garfield at this point. So I'm going to repeat my other advice you should bubble up your concerns through the staff and board of directors."

Yes, me too. I don't know of parents in the north end who will be sending their 8th graders to Garfield next year. With this news, I am hearing many will choose neighborhood schools of Roosevelt & Ballard or Ingraham. So all the schools will receive a surge in HC enrollment a year early. How will this affect enrollment next year? What can they do as I believe they are maxed out on portables and expecting an additional surge of neighborhood general ed kids?

Anonymous said...

Benjamin: You're an 8th grader living in the Roosevelt zone. You have a guaranteed spot at either Garfield or Roosevelt next year. You can apply for a lottery spot at IHS without losing your placement at Garfield if you don't get it and can return to Roosevelt at any year (as long as you remain within its boundaries). You will not have to switch schools if you go to Garfield. You may have to switch schools depending on the boundary issues with Lincoln if you go to Roosevelt.

Pumpkinbread: In other words, you think when my current HCC 8th grader is a 10th grader there will be no guaranteed spot at the new North End HCC school (Roosevelt)?

That's my initial take as well, although there are a couple things that make it more complicated. If you were to head to Roosevelt next year for 9th grade, you'd be taking an non-HCC-pathway, assignment school route. However, you still retain your HC-identified designation, and the school still needs to provide services (to some extent). If you are in one of the RHS areas to be geosplit to Lincoln the following year, it seems like they'd expect you to move, since you were at RHS as a regular, AA student. In other words, you'd already moved "off the pathway", so you've essentially given up your right to the pathway in the future. That said, however, the district still needs to provide you with HC services. Would they really move you from an HCC pathway school to Lincoln, a non-HCC-pathway school? Would it depend on if Lincoln was offering courses that met the requirement for a K-12 continuum of advanced/accelerated instruction? Would they geosplit you to Garfield instead, which would be the new HCC pathway school for your address? It seems bizarre to geosplit you from Roosevelt HCC to Garfield HCC as part of Lincoln's reopening.

My guess is they'd argue that once you leave the pathway you're a GE student, but the fact that once you're designated HC they need to provide a continuum of services all the way through 12th grade seems to really complicate that argument. Especially if they're trying to send you to a school that can't/won't meet those needs.

Interesting question. It would be good to follow up with enrollment staff and the board to see what their thinking is. My guess is that they won't all be on the same page, which suggests it's something that needs to figured out and incorporated into the SAP. Specifically, (1) can an HC-identified student at an AA high school be geosplit to a non-HCC pathway high school if it doesn't offer the courses needed to maintain a continuum of services; and (2) assuming no to #1 above, would such a student be geosplit to their HCC pathway high school, or grandfathered at their current high school if it is also an HCC pathway site?


juicygoofy said...


I have been wondering the same.

If a current 8th grader elects to go to Ballard or Roosevelt in 2018, do they "give up" their HC status? If the same student lives where boundaries change in 2019, would they then be required to move, even if it were to a non-HC school?

If the answer to both is "no", I see this as a viable option for some current 8th graders (specifically for those with especially long commutes to Garfield.)

The other question is, will HCC students who are already enrolled at Garfield be allowed to move "back" to Ballard or Roosevelt in 2019 (if they want)?

Anonymous said...

@Juicygoofy- See Benjamin's post above " So we're all on the same page - the current draft policy specifies that the 8th graders will go to Garfield and be grandfathered there and NOT switch to the new pathway."

I am curious as to the answer to your first question. I believe they are designated as HC but are in a non HC pathway school. This also means they can not opt back in to Garfield any any time. Not sure about if they can opt in to Ingraham IBX the following year, if the neighborhood school does not work out.

Anonymous said...

Have the boundaries and student assignment task forces talked to each other at all to see where the cohort lives? We were ready to give up our kid's HC status to attend Ballard as from NW Magnolia it would be a 30 - 45 minute commute, with the bus transfers. Instead, we are going with the 1 + hour commute to Garfield as it appears Magnolia is going to be assigned to Lincoln and a school with only 9th and 10th graders will not be able to offer the courses the HC kids need.

Based on this proposal, Garfield will be Magnolia's HC pathway school as well. Where is the logic in that? Kids should be offered the shorter commute so they have more time to study. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in these meetings to hear how they rationalized this.

I sent an email to the the generic task force email that I got when I attended the open house at BHS with a plea for the SAP to allow kids from HIMS stay at the school they choose for the 18/19 school year, and received a response that we are guaranteed a spot at Garfield.

Frustrating! I would rather have my kid in class than spending 2 + hours on a bus each day.

If Ballard does become a HC school, in open enrollment we may make a request to switch to to Ballard because it would save an hour a day. Probably won't get it, but it would be worth a shot.

~ Magnolia Mom

Anonymous said...

From one pathway to five pathways? I think the HCC Advisory Committee has it right. We should advocate for one HC pathway in the north and one in the south, plus the IB option.

Close to home is nice, yes. Staying with known friends is nice, yes. But that’s not the point of following the HC pathway. The point is to have a pathway that offers a critical mass of students. And in high school, that is even more critical for ensuring the existence of next-in-sequence academic offerings. And, as some other posters have described, you need a few sections of each class in order to allow any individual student to have a chance of creating a schedule so that they can get the classes they need.

I can't get my head around the challenge for this year's 8th graders. But long-term, if kids want to choose their attendance area school and it’s not an HCC school, then great. But fracturing the HC pathway to the point of losing critical mass for students coming from any part of the city is undermining the whole point of the HC pathway.

Hold it together

Anonymous said...

Correction to my comment just above (last paragraph). I meant to say: "HCC pathway school" and not "HCC school."

Hold it together

Anonymous said...

@Magnolia Mom- Write the board and staff about your concerns. The HC advisory committee recommends one North end pathway and one south End pathway plus Ingraham IBX option. Lincoln would be the one school with space that could become a HC north end pathway school. This option would likely be better insurance toward an advanced AP curriculum pathway for 4 years for all students.

The 5 pathway idea would be an "unknown" for kids each year, unless each and every school could plan effectively to offer a cohesive advanced class pathway enough sections so core classes fit together every year. Otherwise, I believe core advanced classes could conflict.

Garfield has historically offered tons of sections so this is all much easier. If they move to 5 pathways, their sections would also reduce. Any electives and foreign language would need to fit outside the core. It can be more challenging to implement without the budget, school registrar, principals and SPS all working and planning together.

juicygoofy said...

I am going to write this again with more clarity.

I understand that the plan advises grandfathering of Garfield HC students, but if an HC student were to WANT to move back to their neighborhood school in 2019, could they?

If the answer is "no" or "only if there is space", I imagine that a lot of current Ballard and Roosevelt area 8th graders will opt to enroll in their neighborhood school for 9th grade in 2018, with the expectation that HC services will be provided there in 2019 and beyond.

Anonymous said...

"with the expectation that HC services will be provided there in 2019 and beyond."

@ juicygoofy--
Not so sure they will actually provide a pathway program with lots of sections in which students can make schedules that fit together every year like Garfield has offered. Many of us are concerned it will be unpredictable from one year to the next. Having access to an AP class is not the same as having all the classes you actually need align. Also, once the QA and Magnolia kids are gone in 2019, Ballard will look different and AP sections may also diminish.

juicygoofy said...

Magnolia Mom, do you have a current 8th grader?

If so, as the plan is currently stated, it's possible that your student could attend Ballard in 2018 as a 9th grader because it is your attendance area school. If your student retains HC status, they may be able to "grandfather" at Ballard if/when it becomes an HC school.

I can't imagine that they would move your student to Garfield in 2019, mainly because you didn't choose it in the first place, but also because one of the goals is to reduce HC enrollment at Garfield.

Also, no move to Lincoln, because it is not proposed as an HC school (yet.)

Note: I am taking educated guesses, based on what I am reading and am in no way an expert! And I wouldn't be surprised if these and subsequent plans and rules change....

juicygoofy said...


"Not so sure they will actually provide a pathway program with lots of sections in which students can make schedules that fit together every year like Garfield has offered."

I don't think anyone is expecting Ballard or Roosevelt to be as cohesive as Garfield. But no options are perfect, and many will want to choose their neighborhood school over the commute. I do think many current 8th graders will be choosing Ballard over Garfield, whether or not Ballard becomes an HC school.

Anonymous said...

@Juicygoofy-- I think most Ballard & Roosevelt HC parents might not be aware that their student might not have appropriate coursework for 4 years. They will see a range of AP courses listed in the catalog and the district's reference of an "HC service school". They might not understand the complexities of scheduling and needing various sections so core courses fit together yearly. They might not understand it might mean choosing between advanced core classes available from year to year. Also, could limit electives available and possibly foreign language.

If they understood the ramifications they would send their student to the school that can best meet their needs. These same parents have also sent their child to the HC pathway middle school.

If we do end up with a 5 HC pathway parents need to be fully aware of potential ramifications so they can advocate effectively.

Anonymous said...

@Juicygoofy-- I agree with the commute comment. I also think many will choose Ingraham.

juicygoofy said...


I am not underestimating the knowledge of HC parents and why they may choose Ballard over Garfield. Current 8th grade HCC parents I know have been eyeing-up Ballard and Roosevelt for years, even before this recent HC proposal.

These kids have experienced overcrowded classrooms, poor facilities, splits and moves since kindergarten. Their parents have been expecting 2018's high school capacity train-wreck for years, as well as a potential move (again) in 10th grade. Most only hope (just for once) to be able to graduate from the school at which they started. Ample honors and AP courses would be icing on the cake.

That all said, I do feel that most would choose Ingraham over Ballard, if given a guaranteed seat and promise to grandfather. But guaranteed seats have not (yet) been proposed.

Anonymous said...

IMO access to advanced coursework and ease of making their schedule for 4 years and not repeating courses or having to take inappropriate courses is not icing on the cake.

For HC identified kids, it is their basic right to an education. All kids should be able to take sequential courses, this includes HC. I have heard of some kids at Ballard getting into AP courses they needed while another having to take courses that were not appropriate. All HC kids will need access to the same advanced core courses.

But until/unless we all see the data we should advocate and be wary. We need to be assured by the district that sequential coursework in all core subjects for 4 years will not only be offered, but be "truly" accessible for HC kids. This will take work, planning, budget and individual schools scheduling for a pathway so courses do not conflict.

Anonymous said...

@Anon at 2:04, not sure what you meant by this: "If they understood the ramifications they would send their student to the school that can best meet their needs. These same parents have also sent their child to the HC pathway middle school."

You seem to be suggesting that informed parents wouldn't send their HCC students to Ballard or Roosevelt next year (in anticipation of them becoming HCC pathways the following year) because those schools likely won't have sufficient cohorts to have sufficient numbers of sections of advanced classes. However, what are you suggesting is the alternative? Sending them to a soon-to-be-diminished Garfield? That doesn't seem like a better option, knowing that's the final "big" cohort to go there before the pathway is drastically reduced in size and number. By the time next year's 9th graders are juniors or seniors, do you really think there will be that many advanced classes offered? I think it's going to be VERY different by then.

Anonymous said...

Next year's cohort would be the last to be grandfathered so likely they would be the last very large cohort. This large cohort would be taking classes together. By the time they are juniors or seniors the offerings at Garfield would likely be similar Roosevelt or Ballard under their plan.

There would theoretically be more HC students to begin with (in 2018) so the 2018 group would be larger, and Garfield would be one of the five pathways from 2019 forward. Garfield has been offering an HC pathway for a very long time...30 years? Years ago the HC cohort was far fewer in number.

I do have concerns about splitting to 5 sites without data and planning. These are new sites, so training and an understanding of what they need to provide needs to happen.

I also have concerns about sending my kid prematurely to a neighborhood HC site (2019) in 2018. Here is the reason.

Would they not be under an obligation to provide pathway curriculum for this age group (even 2019 forward) because they opted out of the pathway in 2018? I don't know. I don't think SPS would provide any assurances to current 8th grade HC families unless they would support them moving back prematurely. But I don't think that will be the case due to capacity.

Anonymous said...

P.S I think there will be alot of concerns surrounding 2018 cohort that will need to be vetted and understood prior to open enrollment.

Anonymous said...

I have a child at Garfield this year. Not many of the HCC cohort from HIMS choose Garfield. She estimated about 30 from JAMS. Most from Washington. There was a strong preference from HIMS for Ingraham, with a few choosing Roosevelt. I anticipate next year being similar. I think Junior and Senior year advanced classes are no guarantee anywhere, including Garfield. Many are doing Running Start.

Good Luck

Anonymous said...

I think Lincoln will not be Language Immersion upon opening because of cost. They would need to offer Spanish 1-5, and Japanese 1-5 for 9th and 10th graders coming out of HIMS and transferring from other high schools. I bet the convert it to language immersion in 2021 once they have the upper classmen to support all the advanced language classes.

Good Luck

Anonymous said...

I had wrote advanced learning in June asking about current numbers. Here is data provided in case anyone is interested in total HC students at each school. Of course Ballard has approx 2000 kids total while Ingraham has approx 1400. But it also demonstrates the huge differences in HC qualified between Garfield, Ballard & Roosevelt.

Ballard has 99 HC students this year.

Garfield has 601.

Ingraham has 373.

Roosevelt has 91.

Anonymous said...

Using numbers above, % HC qualified enrolled at each school ("Total Student Count" from the October 2017 enrollment reports):

Ballard 5% (1909)
Garfield 31% (1993)
Ingraham 27% (1390)
Roosevelt 5% (1870)

Anonymous said...

Keep in mind enrollment has capped IBX at 90 students, or about 360 students.

Anonymous said...

@Good Luck " I think Junior and Senior year advanced classes are no guarantee anywhere, including Garfield. Many are doing Running Start."

That is a different issue related to capacity and it affects general ed as well as HC at all the overcrowded schools including Ballard, Garfield & Roosevelt & probably also Ingraham. Someone quoted a statistic that 1000 kids are doing running start! So almost another high school of juniors and seniors.

Anonymous said...

To clarify the numbers were presented in June, so you would need last June's 2017 total enrollment, not Oct 2017. This year would be slightly different than last, but people can get a general idea.

The additional data that we need to see is number of sections of each AP class offered at each location proposed, number of general ed versus HC kids taking each AP class etc. I would also like to learn how the AP and honors courses are scheduled at each site, are they scheduled to fit together to make a schedule each year like general ed courses?

I have also heard about HC kids at neighborhood schools not being able to take core AP classes because they were full and having to take general ed classes instead. Will our kids need to battle to get access to classes they need? If a school becomes a designated "pathway" would HC kids have some kind of priority enrollment for classes in their sequence? Advanced learning told someone (on a different thread) HC has priority but this is not followed at most schools.

Anonymous said...

Anon@11:49, it's unclear what numbers you posted - the number of HC students at each school at the end of June 2017, or those enrolled at each school for Fall 2017? It's important to know the difference, as families are reporting higher numbers enrolled at Roosevelt and Ballard this year. Grade by grade numbers, along with Running Start numbers, would be more telling.

12th grade IBX students were also told they had the option of gen ed classes if their schedule conflicted with the one section of advanced LA they offered. It's not just neighborhood schools having issues with scheduling and course offerings.

Anonymous said...

"Anon@11:49, it's unclear what numbers you posted - the number of HC students at each school at the end of June 2017, or those enrolled at each school for Fall 2017? "

To be clear, I wrote last June and received numbers last June. So the HC numbers were from last school year.

Running start will be the only/best option for many kids until 2019 due to the space issues at all the overcrowded schools.

Anonymous said...

P.S Also, note, I am in the North end which is why advanced learning did not include other high schools. I have no idea HC numbers for W Seattle or Franklin.

I sense that Ingraham mostly and to a lesser extent, neighborhood schools Ballard & Roosevelt probably draw more kids away from Garfield. This has likely increased past couple of years. Traffic, elimination of 48 bus etc. The Garfield numbers are likely comprised mostly of Garfield reference, W Seattle and South Seattle.

Anonymous said...

Whomever posted this, this is what I see below.

Total Student Count" from the October 2017 P223 monthly enrollment report:

Ballard 1933 Total enrollment
Garfield 1857 Total enrollment
Roosevelt 1870 Total enrollment
Ingraham 1390 Total enrollment

-data nerd

Anonymous said...

Actually, It would be REALLY interesting to see the actual data of where the CURRENT kids attending Garfield live from past couple of years. Is this available?

Just guessing, but the impact of splitting the cohort from 5 to 1 might have a really negligible impact on Roosevelt and Ballard. Anyone want to take a guess?

In recent years it seems the North end seems like families have been choosing neighborhood school or Ingraham (space available). I really wonder how many 9th and 10th grade north end students are at Garfield.

The South end & W Seattle is a different story.

juicygoofy said...

I think it's fair to assume that Ingraham's waitlist has an impact on the number of HC students attending Ballard and Roosevelt. Note that space was guaranteed at Ingraham in prior years, up until now. I wonder what the HC 9th grade numbers are, compared to higher grades. (At Ballard and Roosevelt, taking into consideration a higher overall number of students also.)

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the correction, data nerd.

Anonymous said...

I think they limited Ingraham numbers to 90 this year, according to what I heard Flip or Ashley say at a community meeting last spring. It was increased to 120 in previous years. I'm not sure why it was decreased. Maybe they were intending to increase numbers at Ballard and a Roosevelt as a way to set the stage and make their case for this proposal.

Fix AL

Anonymous said...

I am aware that counselors at the school level have told parents otherwise.

However, I wanted to share that advanced learning told me HC students DO have priority registration for AP courses after seniors at all schools, as long as course pre-reqs have been met. I made the advanced learning rep aware that the individual schools are unaware of this policy. Or maybe they choose to ignore it! Who knows.

But either way, HC parents should know.

I assume this is because it falls under the state WAC access to accelerated coursework is basic education for HC students etc.

I heard from parents that their HC student has had to take general ed classes because AP core classes are full. Heard this from Roosevelt, as well as Ballard parents who were all unaware of this policy. I think also Ingraham counselors might be unaware of the policy, but maybe not as much of an issue at Ingraham due to the program structure of IB.
-sharing info

Anonymous said...

I think you mean that HC students have the right to priority registration for AP courses. They only have priority registration in schools where this rule is understood and followed.

Anonymous said...

nope, graduating seniors have the priority. there is no rule except as defined by that school's master schedule. that is a lie. a district lie. get used to it. in fact the only pathway students were given limits on how many advanced classes they could take. even if that would then make it look they were slacking to colleges... so they would move on to running start or risk looking not college ready.

does sps really think they have a college readiness program? hcc really was that. these changes would insure not so much.

and so even with one pathway the district has given up on any high school program for hcc. sad. now they want every school to be sad too. oh it is 5 schools that will be sad. unless you live north of the ship canal and are currently headed to ballard, perhaps ghs and roosevelt. oh and screw those folks who have to bus from lincoln to ghs to get their needs to met. divide. conquer. repeat. welcome to michael tolley's world.
no caps

Anonymous said...

@no caps-- If you read my post you will see it states "after seniors". Priority after seniors.
-sharing info

Anonymous said...

"I think you mean that HC students have the right to priority registration for AP courses. They only have priority registration in schools where this rule is understood and followed."

Yes, but according to advanced learning it should be followed as policy in all schools. I shared that I heard rumor it was not, and was told the person will notify the advanced learning secondary specialist. Another parents shared that she utilized this policy when her student ran into issues. Just putting it out there so parents are aware. It would be helpful to see policies in writing (rather than an email from a representative) and I requested the info. If I get it will share it.
-sharing info

Anonymous said...

@Juicygoofy-- If an HC student chooses neighborhood school ex Ballard in 2018 and their neighborhood school becomes Lincoln in 2019, I believe they would be at risk for being moved to Garfield for HC service.

For this not to happen there would need to be some kind of grandfathering clause. Since the kids could receive the service at Garfield, not sure they would grandfather.

Anonymous said...

If opting out of Garfield and the HC pathway, it would seem a Ballard or Roosevelt student reassigned to Lincoln would remain at Lincoln and lose the option to then move to Garfield or Ingraham. At least the way the SAP is currently written. There has always been an option to opt out of the pathway to remain at your neighborhood school, but once you opt out in high school there's no guarantee of rejoining the pathway at a later grade.

But it's all speculation at this point. Without knowing the SAP rules and procedures for both 2018-19 and 2019-20, or the boundaries and pathways, we can only guess.

Anonymous said...

Person with moniker HCCrent posted on another blog that they went to the Nov 7th HCS AC meeting and staff stated there are 4 HC plans! So an additional 3 plans besides the 5 HC pathway plan parents viewed at the SAP meetings.

Only the one HC pathway plan we are all discussing went thru the operations committee meeting. So stay tuned.

The person was very upset especially with the fact that everyone in the entire district is being asked to weigh in on their own opinions on how to deliver what they define as AL services, meaning HC. An analogy was made "would they ask the public to help determine how ELL or special ed services should be delivered"? I think we know the answer.
not equitable

Anonymous said...

"The year was 2081 and everyone was finally equal."

Anonymous said...

I agree with that interpretation, except for the complication that they legally need to be able to provide a continuum of services for HC students. That's true whether you're on the pathway or not. Currently, at non-HCC high schools you can access AP/IB classes. If an HC student gets reassigned to Lincoln though, will there be appropriate services that constitute HC basic ed? It seems harder for the district to make that case if there are 5 pathway schools--it suggests non-pathway schools are less able. If you can't get the classes you need at Lincoln, how could they deny "late" access to a pathway?

Benjamin Leis said...

I know people have talked about continuum of services language but the law also recognizes financial constraints to this


"State administrative law takes into account the funding constraints and local resources. However, this WAC places each student’s need and capabilities at the center of the program service you put into place.

WAC 392-170-080 Educational program for highly capable students — directs districts to take student needs and capabilities into consideration when providing services and to keep a description of individual student educational
programs on file.

Each student identified as a highly capable student shall be provided educational opportunities which take into account such student's unique needs and capabilities. Such program shall recognize the limits of the resources provided by the state and the program options available to the district, including programs in adjoining districts and public institutions of higher education. Districts shall keep on file a description of the educational programs provided for students selected."

Without a legal challenge to settle the issue, I'm not convinced a district couldn't claim they can only satisfy students needs in a single or certain sites due to expense. And across the state beyond Seattle this definitely comes into play.

Anonymous said...

I highly doubt they would make an HC qualified kid move from Ballard or Roosevelt which would be providing HC services in 2019 to Lincoln if the school will not offer advanced classes.

Ballard & Roosevelt HC parents would likely all complain if no services were to be offered at Lincoln. At the SAP meetings Wyeth Jesse stated the plan proposed would not tie HC to boundaries.

They would not do this with ELL or special ed, why HC also a service? But this is something that would need some clarification. They could instead move these kids to their new linked pathway school, ex Garfield.

But anyway, sounds like there are a few more plans to yet be revealed according to the NOV 7th meeting, so everyone stay tuned.

Prolly Dreaming said...

A single site won't work because Garfield can't fit everyone. So, there pretty much has to be at least 2 sites. One somewhere north and one somewhere south. And then if there were enough students at those sites that needed advanced classes, it would make financial sense to offer the classes. If a big percentage of your students need more accelerated math than the standard gen ed math pathway, it makes sense to offer fewer of the standard math classes and more of the accelerated ones.

What doesn't make sense is trying to spread the students who need the advanced classes out to 5 or more high schools at different locations throughout the city. Then the district is pretty assured that there won't be enough who need the higher level classes to make it worth offering enough of the classes. And then families will have to decide they don't really care about how competitive-college-ready their children are and just go with whatever the district offers. Or flip to Running Start. Or switch to private school or home school or maybe if the district really fails to provide what the students need there could be some sort of highcap co-op homeschool high school run by parents and combine that with some distance learning courses? Or we move?

If they just decided to make Ingraham the north end pathway school that would sure be a lot easier than moving. Sigh.

If they can only afford to offer it at a single site, why don't they go with Lincoln? No one's assigned there yet, so it's not overcrowded. Lincoln could offer a focus on HC and CTE...

Anonymous said...

I don't think Ingraham will be the north end pathway school, but who knows. Maybe if they could add AP classes (in addition to IB) and somehow would have the space. I think likely it could be Lincoln and Garfield in the south end.

SusanH said...

Well, you probably all got the email from the district tonight about the recommended plan: 5 pathways. Diluted offerings for all! (Based on the "research" where they asked ALL 5-12 families what they wanted for HC services, not just those affected by it).

Anonymous said...

I think they should do a survey of all families re: FRL lunch next. I would like for my child to get free lunch. I could use the money we save to help pay for academic enrichment outside of SPS, since we won't get it inside.

Also, my child's school doesn't have a field, and he often falls and gets scraped up on the blacktop. Some schools have really big fields, which doesn't seem fair. Since there isn't room for all schools to have fields, I don't think any of them should.

worst instincts

Anonymous said...

Also, the email stated this " Once HC pathway schools are confirmed by the School Board, district and school staff will work with university partners, students, and families to discuss advanced learning services, including course offerings, at each identified school." partners? People are interpreting this to mean Running Start. So sending students outside of Seattle Public Schools will be how they provide service delivery? But they are not providing the service! Will this meet state requirements?

They are essentially dismantling the HC service/program that would ensure a high school based service/program. Dispersing students and dismantling a program and then sending them outside to Running Start does not equate to providing services.

The definition of expanding a program would be replicating what they currently offer at Garfield at other multiple sites. This cannot be done at 5 sites plus Ingraham. It could be done at 2 sites (one north, one south) plus Ingraham.

Becca said...

I want to communicate my desires for a single North End HCC pathway school. Who do I write to?!

Anonymous said...

@ Becca,

Maybe write to Santa Claus? You probably have about the same chances of getting what you want that way.

SPS = the Grinch

Anonymous said...

I appreciate gallows humor as much as the next person but ....

The decision is in the hands of the board of directors. You should write to them if you have concerns. This is not decided yet and may very well change.

Anonymous said...

It would be helpful to get more families advocating for a single north end site. Maybe if Roosevelt and Ballard families realized how many of their students will be reassigned to Lincoln to make room for HCC students, they’d make some noise.

Anonymous said...

You folks need to relax. Your kids will be OK, they will still get into college and they may actually enjoy getting away from the cohort and being with neighborhood kids of all types. It may actually be better for them.

My HC kid has done fine not being in the cohort. Lots of exposure and class time with gened and special ed kids in elementary and middle school and now in high school it has become more stratified year after year regarding ability.

Sometimes, to be honest, we play woulda, coulda, shoulda about the cohort, but everything looks great and lots of kids we know are also doing very well and heading for appropriate higher education.


Anonymous said...

Yeah. You’re lucky that worked out for your kid. We’ve all experienced our neighborhood elementary schools, know our children and have made informed decisions about what they need.

Enjoy your time at Ballard or Roosevelt.

Anonymous said...

While you may have the best of intentions, @Lucky, and I am happy that your child and others you know are "doing very well," your response comes off as patronizing and dismissive. Families chose HCC because their neighborhood schools were not a good fit academically. You made one choice; other families made a different choice. Yeah, you're lucky your child's school has been a good fit.

Anonymous said...


Taking your child's experience (n=1) and generalizing to the rest of the population is neither a sound way to evaluate policy nor make group decisions.

Anecdotes are fine to share, but not evidence of anything beyond your personal experience.

My outlier was very frustrated with the academic fit even in gen-Ed kindergarten. Your child was not. I have some ideas about why our children had different responses. However, I would never assume I know your child or what's best for them.

One child's personal experience doesn't define what's best for every child.

Evidence Based

Anonymous said...

Okay, so my understanding is that current 8th graders (as of this year) will be 'grandfathered' at Garfield the following year.

What if my child wants to opt into Roosevelt's HCC program the following year? Would that be a possibility?

Thank you!

Anonymous said...

I wouldn't let my kid enter the cohort either. I believe if parents want an exclusive, meaning exclusive of poor performers, disabled, hard to teach students, ELL students, homeless students, etc. then by all means attend a private school.

But don't make taxpayers provide your children a separate and unequal education.

Gifted programs that remove students from the general student population should be reserved for extreme outliers not for 8% of the district and up to 20% of some reference schools.


Anonymous said...

So much personal opinion wrapped up in that diatribe that's it's hard to comment.

Not Optimal said...

I want to second Doctor Hu's request to start a new thread called "What Size are All the Proposed HC Pathways?"

Based on this file (unofficial but the numbers look good and it gives you a good overview of where and when the students are at):

If the district goes with the 5-school-plan, a lot of the schools are going to have cohorts that are too small for recommended optimal sizing.

Anonymous said...

Doctor HSU posted stats on a different blog.

I think people are under the wrong impression that Ballard & Roosevelt will have more HC eligible kids under the new district plan than W Seattle or Franklin.

That is not the case as Ingraham draws from Ballard & Roosevelt.

All the schools mentioned in the 5 pathway plus Ingraham plan according to his estimates would have only between 120-140 total HC eligible, 25-35 per grade.

The issue is will there be enough students to have enough sections of various AP courses to make schedules easily? HC students are accelerated so when they enter high school they need advanced courses as a next course in sequence. Will AP courses fit together each year so students will not have to repeat courses or take general ed courses instead?

Anonymous said...

"If the district goes with the 5-school-plan, a lot of the schools are going to have cohorts that are too small for recommended optimal sizing."
According to Hu's analysis all of the schools will be too small.

Anonymous said...

Lucky may be n=1 bit let's remember that about 100 HC identified students do not enter the cohort, so really n=1000 and I would like to see some evidence these students suffer from not being in contact with their intellectual peers in self-contained classrooms.

The program is not popular with many citizens of Seattle and I have never heard the district defend it, only parents and the occasional teacher.

Anonymous said...

One could argue those opting out of the cohort constitute a biased sample. It stands to reason that those opting out of the cohort may be more biased against HCC, or just indifferent, and those opting in may be more in favor of HCC. The difference is that most of those choosing the cohort have experienced both - first the neighborhood school and then HCC.

Anonymous said...

@Nov 13th 12:10. There is ample research and evidence which is why states across the country offer programs & services for gifted kids.

The way various programs are offered are also a function of the district's budget. Cohort or not cohort has to be looked at in context of the district, budget etc.

It might not make as much of an impact if the class sizes are small, teachers can differentiate effectively etc. If there are not huge academic differences in the classroom. But in Seattle, it is the opposite. Class sizes are among highest in the country etc.

If you disperse kids IN THIS particular district, likely many would end up not having their needs met. In addition, there is also the socio-emotional component, kids being picked on without any similar peers etc.

NESeattleMom said...

In high school there are no cohorted classes, but without enough students in the cohort at a high school, there won't be as many higher level choices for classes.

Anonymous said...

Well the 1000 students who passed the test to achieve HC status have obviously selected to avoid the cohort for whatever reason but they also decided to take the test, who knows, some may have achieved Hc status on appeal, but they just didn't like something about the cohort.

Again, information on their progress in school is not forthcoming. For all we know these kids are identical demographically and emotionally and the parents just wanted a more inclusive atmosphere and are doing as well or better.

To say why is pure speculation, except for anecdotes, which are meaningless.

Their performance on standardized tests, grades and ultimately college acceptance are the numbers that matter and the Al office won't share. They seem to like pitting people against one another as if it sharpens the mind when actually all that stress is bad for families.

Again, I wish to see an outlier, 3 sd's like the new appeals requirement, be eligible for self-containment, not this this huge group of 98% er's based on the national norm.

What never ceases to amaze is the continued advocacy for the cohort absent any data, just anecdote after anecdote. Sure some kids need segregation from gened kids but the idea here seems that there is no reason to ever shrink our program back to what it was in the IPP days, a program for kids working 4 years ahead.

I hope the new appeal requirements are a step towards rationalizing the program into two components, a self-contained 4 grade ahead or 99.something percentile group and local service for the rest.

Please don't regale with anecdotes, ample size n=1= meaningless.


Anonymous said...

Hi Tess-- Here is a personal story for you. We kept our HC eligible kid (99+% district result tested in 3rd) in their local neighborhood school. Reason: Wanted to remain in the neighborhood and feel part of our neighborhood.

We thought it was mostly o.k at the time, but our student had difficulty socially finding friends with whom could relate. In addition, the work was not engaging.

We moved the child to HC in middle and WOW what a difference being with peers made regarding friendships. In addition, for the first time kid was able to go ahead and find school more engaging.
-personal story

Anonymous said...

I think we can agree that families remain at their neighborhood school (or choose another option school) for many reasons - transportation, siblings, etc., and it's not just as simple as "avoiding" the cohort. Since identified students do not need to retest, students can also remain at their neighborhood school for K-5, then move to the cohort in middle school.

Anonymous said...

I don't think we can agree on anything minus the facts. As has been said anecdotes mean nothing. The sample size is n=1.

Maybe the district should ask the HC families who don't enter the cohort.

We really don't know. Just like we don't know the academic progress of cohorted vs. non-cohorted.

One thing we do know is about 22% of students who are eligible for the cohort opt to stay in gened programs. That is a fact.

Why is so hard to hard to accept that some families with highly capable children might find the cohort model undesirable?


Anonymous said...

Why is so hard to hard to accept that some families with highly capable children might find the cohort model undesirable?

Joining or not joining the cohort is a choice. A choice made for a number of reasons. Sure, some families find the cohort "undesirable" - it's really no secret. Some make a point of reminding us over and over and over. But again, families have a choice. Perhaps the underlying objection is that some families choosing not to join the cohort seem to want to decide whether or not others can access HCC.

The fact is that the majority of HC qualified students ARE joining the cohort. I'm not sure where the 22% number originates, but it would be much more interesting to break it down by grade and school. Do more join the cohort in middle school? Do some schools retain more HC students?

Anonymous said...

"Joining or not joining the cohort is a choice."

As Kellie on SSS has so expertly communicated, choice is what's really on the chopping block.

Any posts using words like "segregation" and "ipp" are not so subtle subterfuge away from the real topic, HCC Pathways.

As choice is attacked, partisan trolls abound.

Evidence Based

Benjamin Leis said...

Mod note: I've opened for those who want a dedicated post to talk about numbers. In general, please use the contact me button/email address if you have requests. I've also taken the liberty of deleting those comments.

Anonymous said...

ipp isn't a word, it's an acronym. Individualized Progress Program.

"As part of the desegregation plan's magnet program, in 1978 Madrona was made home of an elementary program for highly capable students, known as the Individualized Progress Program or IPP. IPP students, most of who came by bus from all over the city, shared the building with students in the regular elementary program. In the first few years of this arrangement, IPP students attended separate classes for reading, social studies, and math while sharing classes in music, art, and physical education. Later the two groups were completely separated."

Anonymous said...

40 years later and we have no such program for highly capable students. What we have now is not really a gifted program at all, it's too big. The kids served by IPP are left to their own devices. I really don't understand how such a transformation happened.

I think SPS needs to return to the IPP model and help these students who are the neediest. It would also look like a gifted program to the public who are not happy with the current HCC.

Anonymous said...

Everything has grown. I don't understand your justification. I don't believe the program should just stop serving kids who qualify via IQ test based upon student growth. Seattle has grown tremendously and has drawn high tech and other professionals to Seattle. Many high IQ people have high IQ kids. In addition, the main complaint about HCC is lack of diversity in race and income. You won't capture more of these kids by shrinking the program.