https://www.seattleschools.org/district/calendars/news/what_s_new/satp_and_high_school_boundaries
Note: Its not mentioned but given these proposals are brand new and the extremely tight timeline, its very possible the dates will be pushed back to allow better community engagement despite the start of open enrollment for next year.
Student Assignment Transition Plan and High School Boundaries
The Seattle School Board voted not to adopt the 2018-19 Student Assignment Transition Plan (SATP) at the Dec. 6, 2017 board meeting. The 2018-19 Student Assignment Transition Plan included recommendations on new high school highly capable pathways for 2019-20. (Watch a recording of the board meeting.)
This means that options for programs and enrollment outlined in the 2017-18 Student Assignment Transition Plan will carry forward through next school year.
Next Steps
In 2019-20, new high school boundaries will be implemented with the opening of Lincoln High School in North Seattle. Our intention is to integrate any changes to high school highly capable pathways with the new high school boundaries. Any anticipated changes to highly capable pathways would occur at the same time as boundary implementation in 2019-20.
At the Dec. 7, 2017, Operation Committee meeting, School Board Directors requested staff present the following highly capable pathway and boundary scenarios to the High School Boundary Task Force for feedback:
- Four regional pathways with Ballard, Roosevelt, Garfield and West Seattle as pathways;
- Two guaranteed pathways with Lincoln as the north end highly capable pathway (with Ingraham continuing to be an optional site), and Garfield as the south end highly capable pathway;
- Two guaranteed pathways with Ingraham as the north end highly capable pathway, and Garfield as the south end highly capable pathway;
- Complete decentralization in 2021-22 with every attendance area high school offering highly capable services.
A public meeting of the High School Boundary task force will be held from 12:30 to 2:30 p.m., on Thursday, Dec 14 at the John Stanford Center (2445 3rd Ave S) in room 2750. You are invited to attend and listen as staff presents possible related high school boundaries and highly capable pathways. Read more about the High School Boundary task force.
The School Board will deliberate and vote on 2019-20 high school boundaries and any new high school highly capable pathways in January.
Timeline
- Dec.14: Various highly capable pathway scenarios and related boundaries will be presented to the High School Boundary Task Force. View the event entry.
- Jan. 3: Recommended high school boundaries and related highly capable pathways will be introduced to the Board. View the board meeting event entry.
- Jan. 10: A high school boundaries work session with the full board. See the board meeting event entry.
- Jan. 17: Anticipate that the Board will take action on the new high school boundaries and any changes to the high school highly capable pathways. This action would ensure families are aware of new high school boundaries before open enrollment, which is February 5-16. See the board meeting event entry.
- Jan. 20: Option School Choice Fair
If you have questions about next steps for high school boundaries or high school highly capable pathways, please send them to growthboundaries@seattleschools.org .
You may also contact School Board Directors at SchoolBoard@seattleschools.org (all board directors and cabinet level staff) or SPSDirectors@seattleschools.org (only school board directors).
104 comments:
I can't attend, but I'm concerned that staff usually present incomplete and highly biased "analyses" of the options in these types of situations, doing all they can to tip the scales in favor of their preferred option.
Is there any way to get a copy of the presentation in advance of tomorrow's meeting? Is it possible to see their analysis? Is there any chance they actually looked at the AP class offerings (including breadth, number of students taking, and number of sections offered) at each high school now, so we can consider that alongside current and projected HC numbers for each school to get a sense of how AP offerings are likely to change under each scenario.
Will task force members just go with whatever staff say, or will they insist on meaningful data and ask hard questions? From what I can tell, consideration of HCC pathways was NOT part of the original charge for the HS boundaries task force, so it doesn't seem right that they are now supposed to weigh in on this without having adequate time to really understand the issue. It's messy and complicated, and requires an understanding of HC students and their needs, not just an ability to look at widgets.
all types
I added a note at the top about timelines. There basically is not adequate time for community outreach given these time frames. This is especially true given the holiday season. So despite the desire to finalize the plan prior to open enrollment, its certainly possible this will be pushed back to allow proper planning.
See the 10/24 High School Task Force meeting minutes—page 2, 5th bullet and beyond, regarding HC students starting with “It does not make sense to send HC students back to their attendance area schools.” These notes might be helpful to reference when writing to the board and SPS staff.
1024 HS Task Force meeting minutes: https://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/task_forces/high_school_boundary_task_force/October_24_2017/20171024_HSBTF_Minutes.pdf
Some materials are up for tomorrow's task force meeting:
We're back to Scenario F
https://www.seattleschools.org/families_communities/committees/high_school_boundary/updates/december_14__2017_meeting_documents
However at first glance, its hard to see how these map onto the pathway discussion exactly.
To see how the various scenarios map onto the pathway discussion exactly, it looks like you have to match the various maps with the High School Scenario Comparison Table with Projected Enrollments which is also linked:
HC Pathways High School Scenario Comparison Table with Projected Enrollments
Thank you to all who've posted documents.
It's clear from the HC Pathways Projected Enrollment table that NONE of the scenarios alleviate capacity for the North long-term (2021-22 vs. capacity).
The Decentralized scenario shows Franklin, Chief Sealth and West Seattle hovering at capacity by 2021-22 so most likely over capacity by the following year.
I've not yet seen any documents that illustrate where the rubber hits the road - current vs. potential comparison of high school master schedules and # of AP sections.
This quote from the Task Force Meeting Minutes illustrates the necessity of the above comparison:
"If students were dispersed back into area attendance high schools, students who
are HC identified would most likely enroll in those HC classes in their high
school. Would it displace the students already in the class? This is part of the
equation. It becomes complex. Wyeth Jessie stated it is about master
scheduling and who is there. It is a critical undertaking with many factors, e.g.,
how many students, what are the percentages, what course are being added,
how many teachers are there that are qualified to teach that subject?
• It is not sustainable to have a class of six to ten students; it does not sustain
having a teacher at that size of class.
• It was pointed out that the opposite will happen in regular courses, because now
they will have enough students for the classes. Students in the school drive the
schedule."
While the community might naturally think its equitable to offer advanced courses at all high schools, the district will not offer a "class of six to ten students". Wyeth needs to present the master schedule comparison to the board and community so everyone is clear on the true capacity and equity impact. Wyeth saying its "complex" is not due diligence for a decision of this magnitude. Take current schedule and forecast.
/M
I want to share that Ashley and Enrollment Planning confirmed that the Lincoln option plan would still include 10th grade HC being grandfathered at their pathway schools of Garfield & Ingraham. She plans on making that more clear at the task force meeting today. She confirmed Lincoln would open with 9/10 and include 9th grade HC in this option.
LS
Anonymous 8:43am...I was concerned that the HC grandfathering for 10th graders at Ingraham and Garfield was going to be lost in all of this. That group has been moved around so much (my kid has been to 5 schools so far and would go to 7 if not grandfathered) so I was initially happy to hear that this group might be allowed some stability by being grandfathered in high school. I hope that Ashley in Enrollment or someone won't forget this group of students. Thanks for the update.
NW Crossing fingers
Would this include grandfathering HC 10th graders who are assigned to Ballard for 9th grade as well? We just moved for 8th grade and our new school in 10th grade would change from Ballard to Ingraham...
@neighborhoodplease-- I had asked Ashley Davies to clarify and the only grandfathering specific to current HC 8th would be at pathway schools of Garfield & Ingraham. If BHS is your neighborhood school in 2019 then you stay, if Ingraham in 2019 then I would assume you move.
LS
I urge people to write to delay open enrollment. As a decision is not scheduled until late Jan, it gives only a couple of weeks before open enrollment.
LS
I've embedded a non-binding survey just to see what everyone thinks.
Current HC 8th graders who are not at Garfield or Ingraham in 2019 (10th graders) and have boundaries change may run into issues with plans other than the 4 pathway (BHS,RHS,Garfield & W Seattle) plan.
Example, you start your HC child in 2018 at Roosevelt or Ballard (your current neighborhood school) assuming they can have their needs met. In 2019, your reference area changes to a school that cannot serve them, ex Lincoln or Hale etc. This is an issue.
The 4 pathway plan allows for HC students from other areas to enter a pathway & more entry points to HC so that gets my vote.
current 8th issues
The 4-pathway plan doesn't solve that problem.
@Anonymous- Explain. It does in my view.
current 8th issues.
@anonymous Dec 14th 4:37PM-- It is important that although we all may feel strongly about one of the four options presented, that we realize there are indeed limitations with all of them. Current 8th issues bringing up the issue with 10th HC is one example. Dismissing someone's concern without explanation will not make the issues go away. This may mean that an option such such as Lincoln etc. passed but with an amendment to address potential issues.
LS
@neighborhoodplease-- your question and the 10th grade HC question being able to remain in a neighborhood school really needs clarification. On a different blog someone posted that if HC choose their neighborhood school in 2018 9th grade, then in 10th their boundary changes, they could possibly get to remain through highest grade based upon "choice rules" (they chose to get off pathway) as far as the current SAP. But this is up in the air and would need to be clarified in the new SAP.
LS
@ LS, I don't feel strongly and didn't intend to dound dismissive--I just don't see how the number of pathways solves the problem current 8th mentioned.
If an HC student opted out of the HCC pathway high school, why is having 4 pathways better than 3 or 5? Why is it any different than having one, like now? If the HC student had chosen Roosevelt as non- HC but got reassigned to Lincoln, why does the number of HCC pathways matter, and how does it relate to that student? what am I missing? Do the rules all change under a new plan?
All types
@all types-- The issue would only with current HC 10th graders who could get moved to schools via a boundary change that may not be able to serve them. The multiple pathway proposal allows for linked schools so if they are reassigned to Lincoln the linked school for service could be RHS for example. There would not be the same issues with 11th & 12th students as they are grandfathered. Entering 9th graders would enter their chosen school.
current 8th issues
Current 10th graders will be in 12th grade when this rolls out and are all going to be grandfathered both HC and gen ed according to all the plans so far.
Only current 8th graders will be eligible for geo-splitting in 10th grade. And honestly you could go either way. If they've opted out of the pathway, they've said their needs are met at a neighborhood school and all neighborhood schools are fungible (I'm channeling Ashley Davies the head of enrollment here)
You would need explicit language to be sure you're exempted from the split. And if you're going to go that far you could do the same thing for any of the options and add an exemption for this set of kids. None of them by themselves make that choice "safe".
Sorry typo I meant current HC 8th graders, who will be 10th HC in 2019. Let me explain why for example Lincoln HC option has an issue. The option that opens Lincoln as only north end HC option will open with 9/10 and only 9th HC. This is a detail that Ashley confirmed and will make clear. Therefore, an amendment would need to be proposed for this group of 10th HC if their boundaries change to Lincoln or Hale or a school that could not/would not serve them.
current 8th issues
Didn't one of the amendments suggest students be given an automatic assignment to their neighborhood school, then need to apply to an HC pathway as a choice option? In that case, the neighborhood school would not be a choice assignment. Even without that provision, I'm not sure how defaulting to your neighborhood school would be considered a choice assignment.
Melissa Westbrook's blog suggests parents with HC kids threaten to opt them out of state testing this spring if they dismantle HC services.
@ current 8th, where is the information re: "linked" schools available? You make it sound like it's different than what currently happens with pathways, but the district keeps using pathway language. Essentially, Garfield is the "linked" school for HC students at all high schools now, but if an HC student opted out of the pathway now and was suddenly geosplit for some reason, there's no reason to think they'd suddenly regain the Garfield option. I get the sense you think the Lincoln geo-split will somehow "re-set" things and people get to choose to re-gain HCC, but that doesn't make sense. I also don't see why you think the 4-pathway version solves this problem any differently than a 3-pathway or 2-pathway version, because if linkages are somehow the key there would still be linkages for all...
all types
Although I respect the work Melissa does on her blog I don't think threatening to opt-out is particularly attractive.
1. Pragmatically, there have been calls like this before and no-one has followed through en masse. In fact, the opt-out rates for HC families seem to be on the low end for the district. You'd really have to organize to make something like that happen and I doubt you could build that consensus.
2. I think the district hold most of the cards here. It would be very easy to tie HC status to test participation for instance. I don't think anything good would come of going down this path in the long run.
3. Speaking for myself the most viable option still remains to be politically active.
@all types-- "I get the sense you think the Lincoln geo-split will somehow "re-set" things and people get to choose to re-gain HCC, but that doesn't make sense. " Where did you get that idea?
Lincoln will open as a 9/10 with only 9th grade HC. They will not be able to service 10th grade HC this was confirmed with Ashley. Therefore, if for example the Lincoln option passes, these students if neighborhood area changes to Lincoln cannot attend. They would need an amendment. Or if the Lincoln option passes and let's say the student is at RHS and that area changes to Nathan Hale, they have to go to Nathan Hale, a school that cannot serve them. Or an amendment needs to be made for these HC 10th graders to allow them to remain at their previous school.
The multiple pathway option allows for linked schools to HC pathway schools. Therefore using the example of RHS, an HC student chooses RHS in 2018. The area changes to Lincoln in 2019. Lincoln's linked school for Wallingford is RHS, the student remains at RHS. Or if the linked school of Lincoln is linked to Garfield the student moves to Garfield. However, the student is able to get services at an HC pathway school in both cases.
current 8th issues
@all types-- No, the Lincoln option would not have any linked schools for 10th grade HC. It would not be set up to serve 10th grade HC in 2019 which is the group with the issue.
There are also issues with the Ingraham option. A 10th grade HC student is at RHS, their neighborhood school changes to Nathan Hale, they either have to go to Hale which cannot serve them well or apply and hope they can get into Ingraham for 10th a completely different program from AP.
Current 8th HC issues
@ current 8th, that language is different from any we have currently, so would need to be clearly spelled out in a new SAP before taking effect. Ashley can say how she thinks it would work, but she doesn't set policy. It had not been officially determined that Lincoln will open with 9/10 only, much less that only 9th grade HC would attend. If it doesn't make sense to send HC 10th graders that first year bacause the school can't serve them, why send HC 9th?
Your comment also doesn't support your earlier statement that only the four pathways version solves this. Why not three? If it's just a matter of having linked schools, you can just as easily link with three.
Trying to design pathways specifically for the small group of 10th graders who have already opted out of HCC because they happened to have access to one of a couple high schools that could serve them just/almost as well is bad policy making. An amendment or specific exception to cover that group for that one year makes sense. Choosing the best pathway number and location,however, should. E done based on all students, in 2019 and beyond.
All types
Also, the 4 pathway plan doesn’t give the Lincoln kids who can’t travel all the way to Garfield any real option in the north end, which is why I can’t vote for it. The neighborhood school is not an option since there are no upperclass classes. And there is no guaranteed path to any other school. That’s worse than what exists today.
Wallymom
@all types--It is not a small group, the data shows MANY kids have been choosing these two schools and a LARGE group of HC 10th graders will be at BHS & RHS in 2019. I agree about amendment or consideration for this group if the Lincoln or Ingraham plan passes and that is what I am advocating. However, there are many factors to consider with all the plans and all have drawbacks in my opinion. There is not one ideal plan on the table.
Best option as a whole should be chosen, but we need to advocate for this group or they will be sent to schools such as Hale and Lincoln without services! They are a transition year group. I think that parents without current HC 8th and with younger kids need to be made aware. This is an issue several current 8th HC parents have been talking about amongst ourselves and thus why I am sharing with the broader group on this blog.
@Wallymom-- Just as an FYI, there have been those advocating that Lincoln area HC & Magnolia remain in the north end, not travel to Garfield.
current 8th issues
@ all types "Your comment also doesn't support your earlier statement that only the four pathways version solves this. Why not three? If it's just a matter of having linked schools, you can just as easily link with three."
There is not that option on the table all types. But that would be better in my opinion and I have advocated for less pathways, so south end & W Seattle students can remain at Garfield.
The options on the table are:
1. 4 pathways, three of which currently have highest concentration of HC kids enrolled with linked schools.
2. Lincoln/Garfield beginning in 2019 (with no 10th grade HC at Lincoln)
3. Ingraham/Garfield in 2019 (10th grade HC in AP schools would get screwed up moving to Ingraham)
4. Neigborhood schools- many without enough HC or AP courses in 2019.
As I stated in previous post all have drawbacks because boundary issues, capacity issues, disruption of non HC students and so many other concerns all need to be taken into account.
Current 8th issues
@all types-- Also, at the Dec 6th board meeting Wyeth Jesse made clear his concerns with being able to serve HC in 2019. Keep in mind the 10th grade HC parents are the very same parents who were moved and split in younger years then to Eaglestaff etc.
As things stand most have stated they will not put their kids through yet another split to a new school, especially one in which the district is is ALREADY stating their concerns about being to provide curriculum.
Opening Lincoln to serve HC 9th will be difficult enough but that is not the same age group cohort of kids & those parents would not be moving kids from their high school.
If there are any who want this group (current 8th HC) to be sacrificial lambs to be moved yet again to Lincoln in 2019 for the "good of the group", it won't happen. The parents will kick and fight and SPS is also not behind you.
The push for HC at Lincoln is not coming from SPS admin or majority of board but certain members of community. Can the community pushing this idea have make sure HC kids needs will be met when SPS and the board state why they are resistant? Maybe those members of the community then can raise the mitigation funds.
current 8th issues
current 8th issues - I don't understand why you say HC kids who will be 9th graders in 2019 haven't been affected by splits. My kid was moved to Eagle Staff from Hamilton this year as a 7th grader; odds seem to be high that he may be assigned to Lincoln as a 9th grader.
Jane
@ Jane, being assigned to Lincoln for 9th wouldn't be consideed another split. I think that was the thinking.
@current 8th, I hear you. I said "small group" to refer to the fact that it's a single-year, singe-grade, two-school issue only. Yes, it does mean quite a few students, big that calls far a special approach during the transition period, not the entire plan being based around that.
To me, Lincoln is the logical solution, but yes, ONLY if there's commitment to making it a strong, AP-heavy school. That doesn't currently seem to be the case, but it's not too late if someone with authority were to force the matter.
I'm not fully clear on the reason a Lincoln HCC pathway would mean starting only with 9th grade HC but 9th-10th GE. There are advanced GE students who would get geosplit from RHS and BHS too, right? To the extent there are classes that are ONLY taken by 10th grade eX-HCC students and no GE 10th students I could maybe see the argument, but I don't think that's the case. I also suspect some HCC 9th graders would similarly get screwed by there not being older students there, so mitigation for whatever grades will be needed. For example, if they start with only 9th they'll likely need to offer precalculus, or calculus AB if 10th. There wouldn't be many kids for AP Calc in 10th, but there would be just as few for precalc if 9th only. Adding HCC 10 th would mean the precalc classes could fill. The grades included don't solve the problem, they just shift them. It needs mitigation in either.
All types
Science is the bigger worry. Gen ed 9th graders need physical science and then biology, while hcc students need chemistry and then something else (AP Physics or Bio), completely different classes. Added to this is the fact that next year's 9th graders will be starting NGSS, with a different high school pathway, while hcc students are already on the old one, and can't get on the new on without repeating a semester of chemistry.
Science type
@science type, yes, but the old vs new track is an issue regardless of school. As for what science HCC students would need at Lincoln, I'm not sure how the 9th grade only option helps much. Are you thinking that ALL HCC students would take chemistry in 9th, so that there'd only need to be 3 different classes instead of 4? Is chemistry a requirement? Are physical science and biology set for all GE 9th/10th? I thought not at some high schools, but could be wrong. In other words, will all GE 10th graders coming over from Ballard and Rooeevelt really all need the same science class, or would some of those be ready for AP as well?
What they really need to do is assess the current schedules of all students likely to get geosplit TO Lincoln and see what they are taking, have already taken, and would need to have as options in 9th and 10th. Why have they not done this? It was suggested at least a year ago.
All types
For example, if they start with only 9th they'll likely need to offer precalculus, or calculus AB if 10th. There wouldn't be many kids for AP Calc in 10th, but there would be just as few for precalc if 9th only.
Does anyone truly believe these classes will be offered for small numbers of students? It's highly, highly unlikely, despite any promises made by SPS. As the cohort gets dispersed, some schools will have only a handful of students needing AP Calc as 9th or 10th graders. When it comes down to it, it's a building and budget decision - unless there is explicit written policy otherwise (but, even then...). Similarly, those needing Calc BC are unlikely to have a large enough cohort for the course to be offered (those taking AP Calc AB sometimes opt for AP Stats over Calc BC, there are limited numbers needing both). Forget about electives like AP Econ or even AP CS. Plus, one teacher cannot teach more than 3 unique course offerings.
Does anyone remember how long it took for HIMS to offer Algebra 1 to 6th graders following the first geo-split of APP? And that was when they had existing Algebra classes. Of course, offering Algebra 1 to 6th graders meant offering Algebra 2 as well (or telling them to part-time homeschool, as happened at another middle school). Sigh...there is a reason pathways have been limited all these years. Without a large enough cohort, there won't be enough students needing the same advanced coursework.
highly skeptical
Plenty of current gen ed/spectrum 9th graders take biology at BHS. I think the bigger issue will be the availability of enough math courses for the small # that are working 3 years ahead.
-Beav
I agree with highly skeptical " Sigh...there is a reason pathways have been limited all these years. Without a large enough cohort, there won't be enough students needing the same advanced coursework."
This really all seems like a giant mess and like I stated all the options have drawbacks. They need to find the least worse option in my opinion. Then for example if Lincoln or Ingraham option, provide grandfathering and/or mitigation for those who will be caught in transition and put at risk of not having basic educational need met. Sending them all back to neighborhood schools is the worse idea.
current 8th issues
Dear Juicygoofy-- I checked with enrollment planning and an HC student who opts out of the pathway to Garfield and into neighborhood school has a neighborhood seat, not a choice seat under current SAP. Therefore, they would move to Lincoln in this scenario, even if Lincoln opens unable to serve HC if their neighborhood school changes.
current 8th issues
@current 8th, so you're saying current 8th graders who were planning to opt out of the HCC pathway in favor of Ballard or Garfield, and who live in the area between the two schools and are potential targets for the Lincoln geosplit, need to be aware there's a good chance they'll get pulled out for 10th grade? In which case, we need to make sure Lincoln can provide what they need...which to me is more likely if it becomes the official pathway and there's a larger group of advocates pushing for advanced classes. Does that sound about right? If so, the word really needs to get out!
All types
@all types - No as the Lincoln option on the table does not include HC for 10th right now. Ashley was clear this option would not pull/geosplit north end HC from Garfield. This would be the only way they could help assure anywhere close to what they would need for adequate numbers at Lincoln. So for anyone voting for Lincoln option..be aware!
Current 8th issues
P.S. If (and only IF) Lincoln is made the option, parents should advocate mitigate issues for those 10th grade HC pulled from BHS & RHS who get pulled into a school without curriculum. This could mean allowing them to grandfather (& not switch schools) and remain at BHS & RHS. Or if it could mean advocating for enough mitigation dollars to run the classes they will need at Lincoln. However, without ALSO a Garfield 10th grade HC north end geosplit in this plan (which is not being considered), unlikely they would have enough 10th grade HC.
current 8th issues
BHS and RHS boundary changes could also switch HC students (who have opted to attend BHS or RHS instead of Garfield) to Ingraham or Hale, depending on where they live, correct? If moved to Ingraham will they need to move specifically into HC @ Ingraham to access what they need or does gen ed at Ingraham get them access to the necessary courses? And if moved to Hale?
There is at least one school that plans on integrating Honors/ Core with LA, History and Math for 9th grade. Be sure to ask about the district's plan to meet the state's 24 credit plan and what it means to Honors classes.
@HC Parent - you've made that point here and elsewhere. Why not name the school?
@HC Parent--Yes, I'd like to know the school you're talking about, too. Thanks!
BHS already has integrated Algebra II--and probably other math classes as well. All students are in the same class. The half or so that select "honors" might get a few harder problems on the tests, extra math problems for homework on occasion, and possibly a project. They currently offer 9th grade honors LA and SS. A healthy % (half maybe?) sign up for "honors".
-Love2no
Garfield is the same. "Honors" Algebra II, Pre-Calc, Chemistry have all been integrated, mixed-aged classes. If you choose the honors designation, you have to demonstrate a deeper understanding of the material.
Is this why our numbers of National Merit Scholars are down?
Brick Ceiling
Thanks for checking on that issue, Current 8th. I find this all terribly depressing, as I have an 8th grader, who was just moved to EagleStaff AND is in a maybe future Ingraham boundary. We were hoping that she could finallt, just once, graduate from a school at which she started. It does not look likely now.
@ juicygoofy, assuming she's HCC (since you're here), you could try for Ingraham next year and then she should be able stay throughout. It sounds like they will grandfather HCC students at Garfield, too (although whether that is for current only or also incoming I'm not sure).
@juicygoofy-- If your HC student gets into Ingraham next year, they should remain if nothing changes with plan even with a neighborhood boundary change under the current situation as it would be a pathway.
With new options currently under consideration, if your student chooses Ballard you could only remain at Ballard in 2019, if Ballard remains neighborhood school. If your area changes from Ingraham to Lincoln and Lincoln does not open equipped in 2019 to serve 10th grade HC (as they are currently stating) that is a terrible situation and we need to advocate they consider kids in this situation. This would mean either they grandfather out of pathway kids (kids not at Garfield or Ingraham) at their current schools offering robust AP courses or some other mitigation.
current HC 8th issues
Sorry I meant if your area changes from Ballard (or Roosevelt) to Lincoln. Any HC kids previously in Ingraham's boundary in 2019 should be able to remain I am assuming at Ingraham as they were in a pathway school. Therefore, I am guessing they would not move any HC kids from Ingraham.
current HC 8th issues
Roosevelt does not offer honors only classes. Students are all in the same classes and they complete extra assignments in order to receive "honors credit". Also, some honors level classes at Ingraham are rumored to be far less challenging than regular classes (such as Chemistry) at BHS. It is very teacher dependent.
L
@juicygoofy The only option of the four that would theoretically allow some current 8th (future 10th HC) to remain at BHS or RHS if their neighborhood assignment changes would be the 4 pathway option with linked schools. Other options (Lincoln or Ingraham) if passed would require some sort of mitigation or grandfathering. That is because BHS & RHS would become pathway schools in 2019. If the 4 pathway plan proposed with linked schools is the option chosen, students at BHS would remain at BHS if neighborhood area changed to Ingraham because BHS is the linked school for Ingraham.
However students at RHS or BHS with neighborhood change area to Lincoln could get sent to Garfield or remain at RHS/BHS depending upon how plan evolves. There are people advocating for Wallingford, Magnolia etc to have a north end HC pathway option.
current HC 8th issues
Unless you get that in writing in a policy I would not count on such a linkage. It would be just as easy and more likely given past decisions to say that a student at their neighborhood school will be geosplit with everyone else HC status or not since they have already indicated by their choice they can be served outside the pathway.
Note especially Ashley Davies promised the Decatur/Cascadia parents several times they would be able to opt between schools if there was space. This promise was NOT honored.
If you're in a boundary zone that might switch you should go to the pathway school whatever it is unless there is explicit grandfathering language if you want to minimize risk.
-burned once
Can someone help me get a better understanding of what to expect with this specific scenario? I have a ninth grader at Ballard and an eighth grader at Hamilton as an HCC student. We live in an area that will be designated for Lincoln. If my ninth grader-- who will be a junior in 2019-- is grandfathered into Ballard, will my other child-- who will then be a sophomore-- be allowed to stay at Ballard as with a sibling preference?
Our priority is for both of our kids to remain at the same school for four years if at all possible.Thank you in advance for your help.
Mom of 2hcc
I'm mostly going to hold off advice until the decision is made but I'll note there has never been a case in the past of sibling preference being used during geosplits.
Your best bet will be to wait and then look at the policy that is adopted. Hopefully there will be a path that let's you accomplish what you want although it may mean 2 different high schools.
@momof2hcc I agree with Benjamin. My advice is to follow what is happening and if they are unable to remain due to option they decide, advocate for your HC 10th grader not in a pathway school (Garfield or Ingraham) to be able to remain at BHS. Your HC student should not be moved by the district from a school that could serve them reasonable (BHS) well to one that cannot in 2019. (Lincoln).
K
Keep in mind that many GE families will feel like geopsplits move them to schools that also can't serve them well.... For ex, there may be specific electives that aren't offered elsewhere, or special academies, etc. It could be politically tricky to argue for special provisions for HC students who already opted out, so I'd focus more on provisions that would apply more broadly, such as for any kid who did not have an appropriate four-year sequence available at the assignment school.
DisAPP
For the people who are worried about what will happen to their current 8th graders if they send them to Roosevelt or Ballard and then their zones change to Lincoln or another less desirable school, why don't you just send them to Garfield if you think that might happen? That's what everyone else has to do. I don't get it.
join us
Roosevelt does have honors classes including Math. Some classes like 10th grade LA involve extra projects to get honors correct, but it is false to say there are no honors classes at all. For many advanced courses they are just AP offerings in LA and History, so needing an additional honors option isn't necessary. It has never been clear to me, having chosen Roosevelt over Garfield, how honors for all is different than a freshman LA course. Anecdotally I think it's very teacher specific on what material is included and how rigorous are the assignments. An example from the Roosevelt course descriptions ... "The primary distinction between Algebra 2 and Algebra 2 Honors is the pace at which the course moves and additional resource/enrichment is presented to students. Algebra 2 Honors moves more quickly through the content than Algebra 2, and students also are expected to perform on topics not covered in Algebra 2." This sounds like the ideal model for an honors class in any subject. But, knowing that my child will primarily take AP/CIHS classes when possible, I'm not sure the honors designation means that much other than contributing to weighted GPA.
RN
@RN, often students need to take an introductory level course on a subject prior to taking an AP level class in the same subject (e.g., Chemistry 1A/1B before AP Cemistry). The value of honors classes is that a student who would find the basic level prerequisite classes too slow and simplistic could potentially find an more appropriate intro course in an honors version.
It's not all about GPAs and getting ahead--it's about the opportunity to learn. That said, yes, there is great variation between teachers, schools, classes, etc.
Which schools offer honors Chemistry? Just Garfield? I'm not saying there isn't value in honors classes at all. Honors Math better prepares kids for future AP classes, absolutely. Kids who haven't taken the prerequisite classes wouldn't be able to take them. My point is that Roosevelt does have honors classes, which a previous stated that they didn't. I don't see the value in honors for all as an honors class. Even an opt-in honors class requires that students 'do more' to get honors credit than the kids who choose 'regular' credit. As my child sounds younger than yours, I'm curious what honors classes you think have the most value. Chemistry and what else? I'd love to see more honors options for freshman at all schools, particularly in LA/History.
RN
@RN, I found one honors class at Roosevelt--Honors Alg II. Is that what you were referring to? I don't know if it's really an honors class or if it's actually the "do a little extra for honors type" like with LA.
I was surprised to see how few advanced and honors and AP options are available at Ingraham. If this is an example of an SPS school that IS able to serve HCC students well, we're not in great shape.
As to the value of the "honors for all" approach, you are right to be suspect. This typically means collapsing the number of options. For example, instead of 3 levels of something (regular, honors, and AP), some schools are moving toward 2 (HFA and AP). It's not believable that the HFA class is really at the level of an old honors class, and there's little evidence they are more challenging than what used to be regular level classes. The end result is a net loss of rigor for those who wanted true honors classes, and a hypothetical but likely unrealized-in-practice "increase" for those forced into honors via HFA.
@join us
Garfield is not a reasonable option for many of us. It is too far and commute is terrible. Also, in my opinion, and there could be a legal challenge, the district needs to provide reasonable access to advanced education, not barriers to be in state compliance.
Uncertainty
@RN
I believe Roosevelt (except for the math class) does not offer honors classes as distinct classes, but they offer an option for extra work in the class for honors credit. In contrast there are some schools such as BHS & IHS that offer honors classes in addition to general classes. However, some classes designated honors may not be as rigorous as classes labeled as honors as it is teacher dependent.
J
Sorry typo I meant some classes designated honors may not be as rigorous as classes labeled general as is teacher dependent
J
@Burned once
Keep in mind the HC designation follows the student and the proposed pathway plan includes linked schools, and an acknowledgment within the proposal that some neighborhood schools cannot (yet) provide curriculum for HC. I read the previous 5 pathway proposal by SPS and assume the logic behind the proposal is the same.
HC students would be moved or remain at their new pathway school linked to their neighborhood school in 2019 under this 4 pathway (BHS, RHS, GHS, WS) proposal. I do not agree in this case there would be an issue for example of an HC student at BHS whose neighborhood assignment school changes to Lincoln in 2019 gaining access to their new HC pathway school in 2019.
J
Another example might be an HC student who chooses BHS in 2018 (& not Garfield due to being way too far) and neighborhood school changes to IHS in 2019. That student could continue to remain at BHS their new HC pathway school in 2019 under the 4 pathway proposal.
J
@ J, where is this "linked schools" proposal for review? How are pathways different than linked schools? How is the linkage/access component for those who opted out of the pathway any different in a 4-pathway than it is under the current Garfield pathway model (in which all schools are "linked" to Garfield for HC services), since now if you jump off the pathway for 9th grade you can't suddenly opt back on for 10th? I don't see why adding pathways would make them suddenly provide new options for those who opted out. The poster @current8th above also seems to have checked with enrollment planning because he/she was under the same impression as you, but they were told those kids could indeed be geosplit out of their current high school.
There's a chance it could all turn out the way you think, but there are also a lot of signs--and a long history--that suggest it might not. I'd be careful "informing" people of how it will be when you really don't know. You may THINK you know, but you can't REALLY know. Because nobody knows. Not the district, not the board, not us. Please be very careful when you tell people "how it will be."
Nothing's Certain
@Nothing's Certain: Here is the last 5 pathway proposal, the new proposal has 4 pathways as they removed Franklin. We have not seen a new proposal only the 4 new options being explored as I mentioned.They have scaled back to 4 pathways in one of the new options being explored. It is very true, we do not know if the 4 pathway proposal will be the same as the 5 pathway proposal. I agree with caution, but it does seem likely due to rationale for the first plan, that the plan would also include linked schools. However, they have yet to put forth a new recommended proposal.
Where did I hear the 5 pathway plan information? Wyeth Jesse explained in person at one of the community meetings how it would work for HC kids assigned in 2019 to schools linked to a pathway school. In this scenario an HC student for example at BHS whose neighborhood school changes to Ingraham in 2019 would be able to remain at BHS in 2019 because BHS would become the linked school for Ingraham.
Here is the previous 5 pathway proposal.
http://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/School%20Board/17-18%20agendas/20171129/20171129_Agenda_Packet.pdf
Yes, as current 8th posted, 10th grade HC can be split out of their current high school if in neighborhood change areas in 2019. In my opinion, this may more problematic (for this 10th grade HC group) than the other options listed than the 4 pathway option. Example being geosplit to Lincoln when it has been determined Lincoln will not open in 2019 prepared to serve 10th grade HC. Example, being sent back to all neighborhood schools such as Hale or Lincoln when those schools cannot provide curriculum.
I agree with others that any new proposal must look at best long term solution, but also take into consideration how that proposal if approved (ex Lincoln or Ingraham as north end) may adversely affect current 10th grade HC in 2019. I am guessing most are not in favor of the sending back to all neighborhood schools proposal.
J
@J, thank you for the link. However, I could not find the part about linked schools and what you think this means for 10th graders in fall 2019. There is a section of the draft assignment plan that references incoming 9th graders, but that's different from those already in a high school. Can you please direct me to the page or slide number(s) with the appropriate information? Without that in writing,
Nothing's Certain
@Nothing's Certain- Page 17 lists the linked school data effective beginning in 2019. I am also re-posting:
" Where did I hear the 5 pathway plan information? Wyeth Jesse explained in person at one of the community meetings how it would work for HC kids assigned in 2019 to schools linked to a pathway school. In this scenario an HC student for example at BHS whose neighborhood school changes to Ingraham in 2019 would be able to remain at BHS in 2019 because BHS would become the linked school for Ingraham."
I agree nothing is certain, you have made your point. As you and I are aware we are multiple steps away from any final decision. SPS will have to share their new recommended proposal, the board to vote and there may be issues to clarify, mitigate etc.
J
Update listed on SPS website. High School Boundary Updates and Decision Timeline
The Seattle School Board will discuss high school boundary changes for 2019-20 again at the School Board meeting on January 3, 2018. The discussion will provide additional direction for Board Introduction of the high school boundary changes which is now anticipated to take place on January 17.
Central Office Staff have created additional boundary scenarios to be taken into consideration. These additional scenarios respond to feedback received from families and show the impact of potential Highly Capable pathway changes on different boundary options.. You can view these scenarios on our task force webpage.
No recommendation is being proposed at this time. The School Board will discuss potential options for highly capable pathways at the high school level and boundary changes with the opening of Lincoln High School on January 3.
Timeline
The High School Boundary Task Force met on December 14 and will be meeting again on January 5 to review the guidance from the School Board meeting on January 3.
There will be a Board work session on January 10 to discuss high school boundaries and further narrow down a recommendation for the anticipated School Board vote on January 31.
This timeline allows affected families to know what the 2019-20 boundaries will be prior to Open Enrollment for School Choice, which begins on February 5, 2018 and ends on February 16, 2018. Read more about Open Enrollment for School Choice.
J
Looks like this round the school board will be hashing out the various scenario's for a recommendation for vote. "There will be a Board work session on January 10 to discuss high school boundaries and further narrow down a recommendation for the anticipated School Board vote on January 31."
Here is hoping they do not vote to send all students back to neighborhood schools in 2019 without all schools prepared to accommodate HC. That is the worst possible outcome in my opinion.
J
@J, thanks for identifying the page number. I'm still not convinced it says what you think it says. Students who have already opted out of their HC pathway for high school do not, to me, appear to be covered.
Page 17 says:
"Beginning in the 2019-20 school year, there will be regional HC pathways for students entering 9th grade. Students in a high school HC pathway in 2018-19 will be grandfathered in their current pathway school. The regional pathways are based on your attendance area high school."
That is specific to incoming 9th graders, not those who will be in 10th grade when Lincoln opens in 2019-20. You may be interpreting it such that an HC student who chose Ballard next year would be included in that grandfathering, but I think it reads otherwise since that student would NOT have been "in high school HC pathway in 2018-19." There are really only 2 HC pathways in 2018-19: Garfield (the default), and Ingraham (optional). This means that an HC student who chose an HC placement at Garfield or Ingraham next year would be grandfathered to remain there after Lincoln opened, but it does not say anything about grandfathering students who were at NON-HC pathways in 2018-19.
After thinking about this more, my opinion is that NOT grandfathering HC students at Ballard and Roosevelt is the equitable thing to do during the geosplit. Gen ed students aren't grandfathered there, so why should HC students be? (It might be just as disruptive to the schedules of GE students to move, especially those taking advanced math, those in academies, those who were looking forward to specific classes/teachers, etc. HC students aren't the only students at RHS and BHS who take advanced classes.) Plus. HC students have other options, and they would have fair warning, too. If you live in an area likely to be geosplit to Lincoln and you want to ensure access to advanced classes, opt for an HC pathway next year for 9th grade and you should be grandfathered to stay there.
Nothing's Certain
@Nothing's Certain- No student should be sent to school that will not offer the correct curriculum. And regarding HC kids access to an accelerated education is access to a basic education. HC designation follows the student Nothing's Certain. This is certain.
I am also reposting " Wyeth Jesse explained in person at one of the community meetings how it would work for HC kids assigned in 2019 to schools linked to a pathway school. In this scenario an HC student for example at BHS whose neighborhood school changes to Ingraham in 2019 would be able to remain at BHS in 2019 because BHS would become the linked school for Ingraham."
However, I recommend to let it rest as this is old news with a now old proposal. The new recommendation may be entirely different. And they may just vote to send all HC back to neighborhood schools whether they have curriculum or not. That was direction of the board at the last meeting.
J
P.S The way is was explained to me was they are not exactly grandfathered nothing's certain. They would only remain if it becomes their new linked school. If not they move to their new linked pathway school.
J
My main point was that there is nothing in writing saying 10th grade HC students would be able to stay. What Wyeth Jesse or any other staff member said in a meeting notwithstanding. We've seen what that's worth before.
On the issue of equity, I agree with you that no student should be sent to a a school that doesn't offer the correct curriculum (although I prefer "an appropriate curriculum"). In fact, I pretty much said that in my comment, which mentioned the need to also serve non-HC students who may need similarly advanced classes. Yes, the legislature has made it clear that for HC students access to advanced and accelerated instruction is basic education, but there are many ways to do this. HC does not mean any particular student is entitled to any particular class, so if you opt out of the HCC pathway school then find yourself later reassigned to a school that has somewhat fewer options, as long as it has enough to meet the requirement (whatever that means) it seems legally ok. A school could theoretically offer no AB or IB classes and still meet the legal requirement, if there were other advanced/honors options. This does not mean I think Lincoln or Hale will do so, but they could. And they should. HC students are not the only ones who need rigor. We have HCC pathways for those who need maximal access to advanced classes. For those fine with a little less access (i.e., those who choose their AA school instead) it doesn't seem like they require more than what will also be sufficient for high performing non-HC students.
If the district does make special provisions like you said WJ said they would, that's great for those HC students. It's not so great for others, though--and this is one case in which I think the optics would look especially bad. I am a firm believer in HC services, but I think making a special provision for HC students who decide to opt out of HC pathways now to let them back on later is hard to justify. It would be fairer to let any student petition to stay based on scheduling appropriateness if the reassignment school could not meet their needs.
Nothing's Certain
@Nothing's Certain- We have yet to see any final proposals for any of the discussed new options. However, if a student opts out of the pathway does not mean the district is no longer under some form of obligation to provide services. The designation follows the student. If the district moves HC students into a school without services from a school where they had access to services/appropriate curriculum, I think there would/could be a legal issue to navigate. Also, some kids live in areas in which access to Garfield is too difficult with our increase in traffic and there is no guarantee of admission to Ingraham IBX. Do they really have choice in this case?
J
We know the answer to your second question. Currently, Garfield and Ingraham fulfill the district's obligation. "Difficult" traffic is not a sufficient barrier.
Since services are not strongly defined and every high school offers some number of AP classes good luck proving they aren't served anywhere the district chooses to place them. Its much less protection than some people think. Bear in mind, across the state district's serve kids HC designated in multiple ways including at their local high schools.
Those of you who chose to leave the pathway this year and who are in a boundary zone and even more so next year are making a very risky choice. It may turn out ok but that is not guaranteed.
And yet, staying with the cohort has not exactly guaranteed appropriate services or instruction.
Anon @12:10 answered for me. Yes, that sounds 100% correct to me. The bar is low, and don't expect much if you opt off.
Nothing's Certain
"Note especially Ashley Davies promised the Decatur/Cascadia parents several times they would be able to opt between schools if there was space. This promise was NOT honored."
burned once, really sorry that you were disappointed, but in all fairness to Ashley Davies, your statement is not correct. We live in the Decatur elementary HC pathway. During open enrollment we submitted a choice application for our younger kid to attend Cascadia instead. We were waitlisted as number 3. The waitlist moved and in August we were offered a seat at Cascadia. We accepted and our Decatur HC pathway kid has been attending Cascadia Elementary since the beginning of this school year. Based on our experience, there were evidently other families who were also able to opt between those schools when there was space available. So that particular promise actually was honored.
The commute to Garfield is no better for us Hale area people, but we have never had another option.
join us
@Join us
I think the commute to Garfield might be even worse for people who live in NW. Bus service was eliminated and the traffic too bad and commute is too long to be a reasonable option.
NW
@Join us
I also predict there will continue to be a trend in students opting out of Garfield who live in the north end despite the grandfathering promise if kids have access to IHS, BHS & RHS. The past few years enrollment at IHS, RHS & BHS have demonstrated this trend. I know very few kids in NW considering Garfield at all due to distance. Even kids within IHS neighborhood zone in which parents have commented IB is not a great fit for their HC kid. Garfield is too far with traffic and BHS too full, so they lament IHS is their actual only option. But at least it offers acceleration.
NW
Garfield is a great high school. We have a group of senior friends and a group of sophomore friends. The nearly overwhelming decision was to go to Garfield for both age groups. We live in the north end, near Hale, and have had no major issues. Between shared rides, driving themselves, and frequent use of the bus, the kids make do, because that is what was needed. Honestly, distance has not be a defining issue that affected their decision. My senior has friends in a variety of friend groups, music, academic, theatre, sports all of which draw from the population at large. In many other cities, commutes can be longer (as well as shorter). Essentially, you do what you need because school, is school after all. The overpopulation at the school is the critical need. We see the need to read more, perhaps even more concentrated at schools where more qualified kids will need access to accelerated pathways. However, we did not choose those schools when we had the chance earlier, the larger cohort/group made our decision and has only solidified it while we have been at Garfield. The chances of true being able too provide even an approximation of the cohort and class offerings at every comprehensive high school was something that I expected where I grew up in the country where there was just one high school option. With 19 high schools, seems like that will be an unlikely target to hit.
Just like in many other scenarios, SPS needs to develop a mission /vision statement surround education delivery for high school services. And then put into place the true infrastructure that will be needed to support that mission. Trying to rearrange without additional resources, is a disaster in the making, and sad, because the downfall will be the kids who are going through this transition period.
Mission vision
I don't see how no one sees the carbon footprint implications of a long commute.
Public transportation, yo.
So Public Transportation from Hale area might mean one bus. From NW it means two and transfers as bus service was eliminated. Someone had posted stats recently on where HC has enrolled and NW kids choose schools other than Garfield past couple of years correlates with elimination of direct bus service. There were more kids from NW choosing Ingraham I believe than NE in these stats Eric might have posted. Don't know if the NW kids who did not get into Ingraham ended up at BHS or Garfield.
But Yes, Garfield is an excellent school and also overwhelmingly offers many more HC peers than either BHS or RHS.
Not one bus from Hale area. Takes an hour.
Not to be rude, but why all this discussion of Garfield? There is virtually no chance that north-end incoming HCC students will continue to have a pathway to Garfield, with the possible exception of Lincoln area students (many of whom may not even be north end, if they go with a Queen Anne/Magnolia-to-Lincoln version).
Unclear
With breaking up of current HCC pathways (all to GHS only), given the extreme overcrowding of Garfield, discussion of Garfield is relevant in that many families for many years have chosen this route despite the logistical challenges of making it work (long bus rides, etc) rather than stay in a local program which may not have been a good fit, have curricular options that were in sequence with previous coursework, or have the cohort to make those things work. A move to eliminate HCC pathways altogether will provide uneven offerings, with some students having significant challenges in getting a comprehensive academic schedule put together. A solution one director offered for academic rigor was Aviation High ! - way way far away, and without the bandwidth to really accept many SPS students. I fear it is time to rally and advocate for options to help serve our students best.
@ Unclear In addition some families of 8th grade students are considering whether they should keep their kids in the pathway and send to Garfield or remain local. The past year or two many families in the north end chose RHS, BHS as well as IHS. More than ever before, but numbers still cannot compare to the HC peer 9th grade group available at Garfield. It is helpful to understand why they may have chosen those options. I do agree that likely changes to transportation and increased traffic was a big consideration. From some areas of NW for example traveling to Garfield is 1 hour 10 minutes each way and two buses.
Thanks for the clarification. I see now that this is about the unique case of decision making for current HCC 8th graders, not at he overall pathways discussion.
Unclear (but clearer now!)
Garfield may be a great school currently, but those considering it for current 8th graders should bear in mind that it will be a very different school when those kids are in 11th and 12th grades. The experience of current upperclassmen may not be all that relevant.
HCC students currently at Garfield will likely be grandfathered, meaning that there will be a full 4-yr HCC cohort next year--so probably a full slate of advanced classes (barring any losses due to overcrowding, master schedule, and 24-credit issues, that is). The following year there will still be full cohorts of 10th-12th graders, so should be fine again. In two years, things will be getting a little thinner, with full cohorts in 11th-12th, and significantly smaller HCC cohorts in 9th-10th. That may start to decrease demand for some AP classes. By senior year things will really be different, as 9th-11th grade cohorts will all be much smaller, thus demand significantly reduced. All in all, it's hard to imagine that today's 8th graders would have near the same level of advanced class access that today's seniors have.
So it would really only be an issue for <8th graders right? Most others would roll up in pretty good shape at GHS.
Not necessarily. I think current 8th graders would take a hit. Many 11th graders take AP classes, and classes can be mixed grade. If there are fewer HC 10th and 11th graders, there's a good chance 12th graders would see some reductions in what's available. If the grade-level cohort took classes together then it wouldn't be an issue for next year's freshmen, but with grade mixing and thin cohorts behind them, it's hard to see how they wouldn't feel it somewhat.
You can take a look at the prev. demographics thread http://discussapp.blogspot.com/2017/12/2017-2018-cohort-demographics.html to get an idea of the new potential numbers at Garfield but in most cases the bottom line is that without the North End, Garfield will settle down to a level which is about the same as it had just a few years ago. There really are that many more HCC students aging up.
Thanks Benjamin. To be clear you are basically saying the bubble of kids is so large that Garfield would likely still be able to offer the same classes 4 years from now it has always offered without the (newer cohort of kids) from the north end?
That makes sense to me. Garfield has been offering AP classes and a pathway for HC for 30 years. When my neighbor sent her daughter there years ago were far fewer HC kids.
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